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Sin of Paul - washing the dirty laundry in public!
#1
The essential problem with Saint Paul is that he took an essentially internal Jewish fight to the non-Jewish world. In other words he washed the dirty linen in public!

It seems that he told people that they didn't need to be circumcised, didn't need to keep kosher, didn't need to keep Shabbat the way Jews have always kept it, etc. It's true that these laws apply only to Jews. However, if one was added to the covenant (as some Christians teach), then one would need to follow these laws. These laws are a sign of the covenant for all times, the torah is very clear on that.
#2
Why are we told to only keep the easy stuff like circumcision, Kosher, and Shabbat is always mentioned that we have to keep but not the more tedious aspects of the law? Such as burnt offerings, burning oil continually through our generations, or how about for a son, or for a daughter, the wife is to bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove during the purification after child birth. I NEVER hear this mentioned. Why is that?

Messiah fulfilling the laws and the Prophets as Jesus claimed is a reason we are no longer under the law. In any case, Jews today talk like they're under the law, but how many laws they actually keep is as if they're really not anyway. And then they make up excuses why they don't have to keep certain laws...and the one they do keep are just the easy ones....why is that? How many laws do you keep?

See, that is the thing. You keep laws out of obedience, but you will never know on your death bed if you've been obedient enough. If you keep 50 laws, your neighbor keeps 1, and another 75. Which of you gets to live in the life to come? You don't know.

So big deal if we don't keep circumcision, Kosher, and Shabbat when you don't even burn offerings...
#3
The law exists to exemplify your transgression.
Your transgression is to exemplify your sins.
Your sins are to exemplify your unworthiness to exist in the presence of God.
Your existence in the presence of God is the purpose of your creation.

The exemplification of these things is not for God's sake.. for God does not need to test you; God knows all.. the exemplification is for our own sake; to show that we can only depend on Him for grace, mercy, and cleansing.

As long as we dwell in a Fallen world and in Fallen flesh we shall always be transgressors; therefore we must always rely on the Word of the Lord to carry us to keep us from sin so that when the day comes that we are fully in the Lord's presence; we shall be made worthy and righteous by our faith and His grace.

I pray that this helps.
#4
I don't see any dirty linen in the epistle of the Apostle Paul. The issue was, "Do gentiles who receive the salvation of Jesus Christ have to follow the physical requirements of the Torah?" The answer is clearly, "No." Paul himself continued to follow Jewish customs, even taking a nazirite vow. He even circumcised Timothy, the son of a Jewish mother and a Greek father "because of the Jews who were in those places". The teachings of Paul were essential in clarifying this question of if a gentile needed to first become a convert to Judaism before becoming a Christian. A large group of Jewish Christians were saying, "Yes."

The doctrine of being added to the covenant is entirely spiritual. Being a Christian changes absolutely nothing in one's physical identity or heredity. The spiritual Torah observances are mentioned at various places in the New Testament, such as I Corinthians 5:8 and Hebrews 13:13-16. In the resurrection, in the Messianic kingdom, things will be different, and it will be a joy to complete Torah observance in all of its details. I even enjoy it now, but Christians living in gentile communities, where Torah observance is made extremely difficult at times, are not obligated to maintain physical circumcision and Torah observance to receive salvation.
#5
I still see the same old churchdogma's here....

FIRST OF ALL, According to the Jewish Bible and Teachings from the Torah. A non-Jew who might be a Noachite or Ger Toshav, joins a certain commitment and a personal covenant with the same God, BUT doesn't have to become Jewish. So He does not need to be circumcized, nor do all the sacrifices, keep Sabbath like is commanded to Jews etc.
SO, indeed a non-Jew does not have to become Jewish, that might have been a mistaken thought by some in those days. People just could stay good Samaritans (for they were Ger Toshav) But a ''Good Roman'' who worshipped other Gods and did not follow rules from Torah. OR The Celts in Galatians who had other rules, they had to get rid of being under their laws.

Indeed In Torah, and Kabbalistically the sacrifices could be done by good lipservice etc. With the heart etc. IN That sence PAUL might have wanted to teach something ''spiritual'' to non Jews. BUT Indeed non Jews will as dualistic as Roman, Greek and Babylonian though is: Replace all Gods commandments by something spiritual. Now the spiritual overrules the natural, and that is not a claim from the Almighty.
''In Gesus all the Greeks, Jews, Male and Female are one???'' Spiritually? Really? Are males and females now going in restaurants to the same toilet. Or do practicall rules still apply? Are in practical ways Jews and Greeks still different? And thus in the Temple service and in circumcision also?!!
Even in the Messianic Kingdom that also still has to come, Moses has another kind of place than all kind of other great man, even the Messiah will have a special place next to God (Messiah is not God Himself), that also means that not suddenly spiritually everybody can sit on the seat of Moses.

#6
Yetzirah, your example from Galatians 3:28 is a good one. "In Christ" is a spiritual situation, where we are not male nor female. However, physically we are male and female, and the spiritual reality does not change the physical distinctions, such as between male and female. This is why a Jew who is born again in Christ should continue the physical observances as a Jew, while a gentile can be born again in Christ and continue to be uncircumcised and eat pork.

The question was not whether a Noachide had to become a Jew to be "good". The question was whether a gentile could be taken into the kingdom of God without being circumcised and observing the Torah as a Jew. They certainly cannot continue worshipping idols. In the Messianic kingdom we will sit physically, not spiritually, in our due places, and the current spiritual realities will be consummated physically.
#7
(03-16-2012, 02:55 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: Why are we told to only keep the easy stuff like circumcision, Kosher, and Shabbat is always mentioned that we have to keep but not the more tedious aspects of the law? Such as burnt offerings, burning oil continually through our generations, or how about for a son, or for a daughter, the wife is to bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove during the purification after child birth. I NEVER hear this mentioned. Why is that?

. . .
Circumcision, Kosher, and Shabbat are the hard stuff!

The first (circumcision) is a physical change to your body that was extremely alien to the pagan world during the early part of the Christian Era. It is still alien in many countries today.

The second is Kashruth (the dietary laws). This applied to everything you eat, at home and out. It means that you can't eat in most restaurants or bring in most take-out food. It means that you need to buy more expensive food and maintain two sets of dishes, pots, pans, and cutlery for year-round use and another two sets for Passover use.

The last is Shabbat. This means from a little before sundown Friday to a little after sundown Saturday, you are not allowed to ride in a car, bus, or train; not even to go to Shul. This means you must be home from work and have the car parked prior to that time. It even means that you can't ride in most elevators! You are not allowed to turn on or off lights or light or unlight a stove or oven. You also cannot adjust the thermostat, turn on or off the television or radio, etc.

These are more difficult than the other things mentioned (if you could do them). Since the temple is not standing, you are not obligated to do the commandments associated with the temple at this time. This was always the understanding as there were periods long before the Christian era when the temple was not standing or not operational, or travel to Jerusalem was not feasible.

This is not the easy stuff!
#8
(03-16-2012, 02:55 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: Why are we told to only keep the easy stuff like circumcision, Kosher, and Shabbat is always mentioned that we have to keep but not the more tedious aspects of the law? Such as burnt offerings, burning oil continually through our generations, or how about for a son, or for a daughter, the wife is to bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove during the purification after child birth. I NEVER hear this mentioned. Why is that?

. . .
Circumcision, Kosher, and Shabbat are the hard stuff!

The first (circumcision) is a physical change to your body that was extremely alien to the pagan world during the early part of the Christian Era. It is still alien in many countries today.

The second is Kashruth (the dietary laws). This applied to everything you eat, at home and out. It means that you can't eat in most restaurants or bring in most take-out food. It means that you need to buy more expensive food and maintain two sets of dishes, pots, pans, and cutlery for year-round use and another two sets for Passover use.

The last is Shabbat. This means from a little before sundown Friday to a little after sundown Saturday, you are not allowed to ride in a car, bus, or train; not even to go to Shul. This means you must be home from work and have the car parked prior to that time. It even means that you can't ride in most elevators! You are not allowed to turn on or off lights or light or unlight a stove or oven. You also cannot adjust the thermostat, turn on or off the television or radio, etc. Of course, there is an exception to preserve life and limb, but not for anything else.

These are more difficult than the other things mentioned (if you could do them). Since the temple is not standing, you are not obligated to do the commandments associated with the temple at this time. This was always the understanding as there were periods long before the Christian era when the temple was not standing or not operational, or travel to Jerusalem was not feasible.

This is not the easy stuff!
#9
Everyone has dirty laundry. The point is trying not to have it. Here is a sad story but true, apparently.
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Defaul...id=1564966
It doesn't matter how honest the person is when money becomes more important than anything else it corrupts...money does not respect religion or person or education or anything. You cannot serve GOD and money, its impossible. Its sad that money has become the focus of so many churches, there is no church immune from moneys corruption...Im ashamed to say its even taken over my local church. Very sad. We live in an economically depressed area. Many people out of work and have poverty level income and often have utilities turned off but at church recently they made a huge production out of collecting monies from each class and announced they had raised these thousands of dollars and I had guests that day and they were even shocked at the emphasis on money. Also do you think that these leaders have any awareness that there are people starving and destitute in that audience before they flaunt this money. I dont think so, they have lost focus. I dont know how we got so far off track but sex and money have rotted the moral teeth of the church, only God can save us. All we need is Jesus...when we need anything else we fail God, ourselves and others.
#10
(03-24-2012, 06:11 AM)shlomo Wrote: . . .
Circumcision, Kosher, and Shabbat are the hard stuff!

The first (circumcision) is a physical change to your body that was extremely alien to the pagan world during the early part of the Christian Era. It is still alien in many countries today.

The second is Kashruth (the dietary laws). This applied to everything you eat, at home and out. It means that you can't eat in most restaurants or bring in most take-out food. It means that you need to buy more expensive food and maintain two sets of dishes, pots, pans, and cutlery for year-round use and another two sets for Passover use.

The last is Shabbat. This means from a little before sundown Friday to a little after sundown Saturday, you are not allowed to ride in a car, bus, or train; not even to go to Shul. This means you must be home from work and have the car parked prior to that time. It even means that you can't ride in most elevators! You are not allowed to turn on or off lights or light or unlight a stove or oven. You also cannot adjust the thermostat, turn on or off the television or radio, etc.

These are more difficult than the other things mentioned (if you could do them). Since the temple is not standing, you are not obligated to do the commandments associated with the temple at this time. This was always the understanding as there were periods long before the Christian era when the temple was not standing or not operational, or travel to Jerusalem was not feasible.

This is not the easy stuff!

[/quote]

You don't complete circumcision yourself, it should be done for you when you're a baby on the 8th day. That is easy. You don't even remember your circumcision, there cannot be anything hard about it.

The dietary laws you mention are completely rabbinical, and the rabbi's make it hard if anything. Torah Dietary laws are easy. You don't eat the foods mentioned in the Tanach. You're learn under rabbinical talmudic Jews, you're not a Karaite.

Shabbat is easy, again, due to your talmudic rabbi's who make stuff up, they've made it difficult.

The Temple not standing made no difference to the Priests, Levites, and People at the time of Nehemiah, and Ezra. So how can rabbi's using the Tanach say any different?



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