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A question from an interested agnostic-atheist.
#11
boakham Wrote:I am interested to know, from a Jewish point of view, what you consider to be the difference between a Jew who believes that Jesus was the Messiah, and a Christian. Is Messianic Judaism effectively a subdivision of Christianity?

Messianic Judaism is a denomination, or subdivision, of Christianity. A "Christian" is a "Christ-ian", meaning "of Christ" or "Christ follower". I myself was born a "mamzerah" who grew up in a gentile Christian home, and the Jewish side of my family were crypto-Jewish or actual Roman and Byzantine Catholics until recently. Some of my Jewish side has become Protestant or were born into Protestant families (like I was. Both of my parents became Episcopalian around the time that I was born or a year old.).
#12
boakham Wrote:Hello,

I myself have no particular beliefs one way or the other, although if pushed I would tend more towards a belief that there is no higher being. However, I am very interested in theology and the beliefs of others, and I hope that I shall not offend anybody by posting to this forum.

I am interested to know, from a Jewish point of view, what you consider to be the difference between a Jew who believes that Jesus was the Messiah, and a Christian. Is Messianic Judaism effectively a subdivision of Christianity?

Thank you in advance if you take the time to reply to this message!

The word Christ is in reference to the Hebrew Messiah. A great definition is found here:
Matthew 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

The word Christian was first introduced in Antioch Syria:

Acts 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Those non-Jews who call themselves Christians are referring to their acceptance of the Hebrew Messiah as Lord and Savior and are spiritually grafted into the Hebrews through Christ.

Some Jews believing in Jesus would rather be called Messianic Jews. Me personally I'm not ashamed to be referred to as such.

1 Peter 4:16
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
#13
boakham Wrote:Hello,

I am interested to know, from a Jewish point of view, what you consider to be the difference between a Jew who believes that Jesus was the Messiah, and a Christian. Is Messianic Judaism effectively a subdivision of Christianity?
First of all , you cannot be a agnostic atheist.Any variance from aetheism  would classify  your definition of belief to fall within the definition of Agnosticism.  the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable. Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions. In some senses, agnosticism is a stance about the similarities or differences between belief and knowledge, rather than about any specific claim or belief.To answer your question; Messianic Jews are the first chosen of G-d; the remnant described throughout the Old Testament. Judaism rejects the idea that Yeshua-Jesus could be their Messiah, thus in the Christian Biblical sense of scriptural interpretation,  non believing Jews separate themselves from their Creator; {The G-d of Moses} Christian Gentiles would not have grace from the G-d of Israel without the Messianics first[Israel]. The Messianic Jews realize most of their brethren[Israel] are still veiled,That their understanding of the Meshiach is dulled and blinded by G-d, and cannot percieve their own G-d's Voice in a man,Yeshua; sons of G-d; annointed, etc. or G-d using a man[Yeshua] to extend G-d's Will for His people; Immanuel-[God with us]; and believe many of their brethren, will be awakened by G-d at a certain future time. The bulk of Judaism[Israel]  denies Jesus as the Messiah Lion of Judah- who is actually  verifiable by their own scripture; as the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, Micah 5:2, Deuteronomy 18;18, denying that their own scriptures state that the death of the singular righteous can atone for the sin of the Nation, and say blood sacrifice has no bearing on their Law,even though their own covenant is sealed in the red heifers blood[para adumah-without spot or blemish] I believe because their Temple is no longer present to do so, but are in the rebuilding of the Temple, to re-instate these rituals once completed, so they can be in effect again. No one can convince you to accept this belief of Christianity, or Messianic Jewish acceptance of their Messiah,but the G-d of Israel,and He whom He sends, and of course, your desire to understand the definition of truth!  I place a space between G-d to signify honoring the 3rd commandment not to take G-d's Name in vain.Thank you for posting your question Boakham
#14
boakham Wrote:Hello,

I myself have no particular beliefs one way or the other, although if pushed I would tend more towards a belief that there is no higher being. However, I am very interested in theology and the beliefs of others, and I hope that I shall not offend anybody by posting to this forum.

I am interested to know, from a Jewish point of view, what you consider to be the difference between a Jew who believes that Jesus was the Messiah, and a Christian. Is Messianic Judaism effectively a subdivision of Christianity?

Thank you in advance if you take the time to reply to this message!

I'm Jewish. Let me answer that question this way. What would you call someone who claimed to be a Puerto Rican for Jesus a Messianrican Jew?  Of course not! They would be called a Christian.

A Messianic Jew is an unnecessary and artificial term. Ironically, all Jews are Messianic. It’s a core belief.  So other then perhaps feeling a little more secure about being a Christian the term is silly.


Avraham
#15
boakham Wrote:I am interested to know, from a Jewish point of view, what you consider to be the difference between a Jew who believes that Jesus was the Messiah, and a Christian. Is Messianic Judaism effectively a subdivision of Christianity?

Thank you in advance if you take the time to reply to this message!

Messianic Judaism in Yeshua isn't a subdivision of Christianity. Messianic Judaism in Yeshua seeks to keep a relationship with our Father who is God through the acceptance of Jesus the Christ who is the Son of God our Messiah and will be coming back again the second time!! We confess what is written in the book of Romans 10:9.

9 That if you shall confess with you mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

However, we follow the laws such as the ten commandments out of obedience as we don't condone our sin. Most disturbing, I read on Ray Comforts website about a book in which a Pastor says that he has a Pastor friend who lives in open adultery, and he felt that their fellow Christian adulterers' only consequence is a loss of rewards when entering heaven. That's pathetic!

So we don't feel we can get into Heaven solely by our obedience to the law alone, and we don't completely take away what is written in the 1st covenant, and consider it null and void. I still celebrate Sukkot for example, own a Shofar, don't deck out a tree for Christmas (Jeremiah 10:3). This is where Protestants, Non-denominational Christians misunderstanding arises...they will often feel that if Jesus fulfilled the law then it is somehow null or void, and live 98% (+ or -) in the 2nd covenant. But yet they agree that they should still keep the Ten Commandments, to abstain from fornication, blood and things strangled which is in the 1st covenant.

Second, and most disturbing, Christian Pastors will willingly jump right into Malachi when asking for money (tithes), and yet they will not celebrate Passover or Pentecost or Sukkot or use a Menorah or a Mezuzah nor offer burnt offering nor sacrifice, won't wear a Tallit--and will then ask us Jewish and Gentile Messianics in Yeshua "Are you sure you guys aren't getting too legalistic now..." And of course many feel Israel isn't Gods' chosen people any more...ridiculous.

Let's take tithing as an example. Take a look at the 10% you always hear about on a Sunday. There were actually 3 tithes. And the 10% is of the harvest that went to support the Levitical Priesthood since they were given no inheritance of land. (Numbers 18:21). OK, so they will then mix the 10% (whether knowingly or not I don't judge) with the 3rd tithe which was for the poor. It was given every third year to help the poor and indigent. (Deut 14:28-29). Yet most mainline non-Denominational, Baptist, Protestants, and Catholic denominations are asking for cash every Sunday!

As a Hebrew in Christ, these are the glaring differences!

#16
Avraham Wrote:
boakham Wrote:Hello,

I myself have no particular beliefs one way or the other, although if pushed I would tend more towards a belief that there is no higher being. However, I am very interested in theology and the beliefs of others, and I hope that I shall not offend anybody by posting to this forum.

I am interested to know, from a Jewish point of view, what you consider to be the difference between a Jew who believes that Jesus was the Messiah, and a Christian. Is Messianic Judaism effectively a subdivision of Christianity?

Thank you in advance if you take the time to reply to this message!

I'm Jewish. Let me answer that question this way. What would you call someone who claimed to be a Puerto Rican for Jesus a Messianrican Jew?  Of course not! They would be called a Christian.

A Messianic Jew is an unnecessary and artificial term. Ironically, all Jews are Messianic. It’s a core belief.  So other then perhaps feeling a little more secure about being a Christian the term is silly.


Avraham

But you're a Jew who believes Messiah hasn't come yet, you're a Torah only Jew most closely to a Sadducee hopefully you're not a Pharisse.

He's asking the difference between those Jews believing in Yeshua and other Christian denominations.

Besides if you don't accept Yeshua you will be cut off from Israel! The gentiles can be grafted into your place. You can't keep the law.
#17
[quote/]Avraham



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If Jesus was a priest after the order Melchizedek then he was a Gentile and not a Jew. Melchizedek was a Gentile Priesthood as Avraham was a Goy. [quote/] Azriel replies, Perhaps then you could provide us with the names of Melchizedeks birth parents, and geneology ?toda raba
#18
Azriel Wrote:[quote/]Avraham



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If Jesus was a priest after the order Melchizedek then he was a Gentile and not a Jew. Melchizedek was a Gentile Priesthood as Avraham was a Goy. [quote/] Azriel replies, Perhaps then you could provide us with the names of Melchizedeks birth parents, and geneology ?toda raba

I can only say that he existed before Israel was given the Torah. That makes him a goy and would make Jesus a goy. By the way that is a strange question to ask from someone who believes Jesus is a priest after him. You dont even have any idea what it is he  believed and or taught do you? Not that it matters to you because you have replaced knowledge with faith.

Avraham
#19
Avraham Wrote:By the way that is a strange question to ask from someone who believes Jesus is a priest after Melchizedek. You dont even have any idea what it is he  believed and or taught do you? Not that it matters to you because you have replaced knowledge with faith.[/b]

Avraham
Time for your lesson ;Romans 4:8-14 is ignored by those who argue that, if Melchizedek was a pagan Gentile, then Yeshua is being compared to a pagan in Hebrews 7. They miss the point that Abraham himself was yet uncircumcised when he met Melchizedek. Read Romans 4:8-14!



3. "After the order of Melchisedec" occurs SIX (6) times in Hebrews 5:6, 10; 6:20; 7:11, 17 and 21. Clearly, the comparison is NOT to the "historical" Melchizedek but instead to "ORDER" of the historical Melchizedek as the first biblical mention of a priest-king. This does NOT demand that the historical Melchizedek must be a worshipper of the true God.  It only demands that the historical Melchizedek by a literal priest-king. Why is this simple truth so hard to understand???



Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?



4. The Bible teaches that the historical Melchizedek's NAME was a type of the Messiah, and then only "by interpretation." Why is this simple truth so hard to understand???



Heb 7:2 "…being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace…" I do not see to believe, but believe that I may see; The knowledge of Faith. Shalom



#20
Avraham Wrote:
Azriel Wrote:[quote/]Avraham



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If Jesus was a priest after the order Melchizedek then he was a Gentile and not a Jew. Melchizedek was a Gentile Priesthood as Avraham was a Goy. [quote/] Azriel replies, Perhaps then you could provide us with the names of Melchizedeks birth parents, and geneology ?toda raba

I can only say that he existed before Israel was given the Torah. That makes him a goy and would make Jesus a goy. By the way that is a strange question to ask from someone who believes Jesus is a priest after him. You dont even have any idea what it is he  believed and or taught do you? Not that it matters to you because you have replaced knowledge with faith.

Avraham
2nd. response-Jesus Christ was NOT the "king of righteousness" and the "king of peace" "by interpretation." Jesus Christ was LITERALLY the "king of righteousness" and LITERALLY the "king of peace."



5.  The "historical" Melchizedek was "made like unto the Son of God" by those attributes which disqualified him from being a priest or high priest in Israel.



Hebrews 7:3 "… made like unto the Son of God …"



Yeshua was NOT "made like unto the Son of God." The Bible does not teach that!  Yeshua "IS" the "Son of God." Why is it so difficult to understand the play on words?



6. The phrase in Hebrews 7:15, "after the similitude of Melchisedec," again refers, not to the historical Melchizedek himself, but to his office as a priest-king. Christ could not be "after the similitude" of Aaron because Aaron was not a priest-king.

Where mans knowledge ends and faith begins , men perish, and the Spirit of the Living G-D of Israel is born within them



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