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A question from an interested agnostic-atheist.
#1
Hello,

I myself have no particular beliefs one way or the other, although if pushed I would tend more towards a belief that there is no higher being. However, I am very interested in theology and the beliefs of others, and I hope that I shall not offend anybody by posting to this forum.

I am interested to know, from a Jewish point of view, what you consider to be the difference between a Jew who believes that Jesus was the Messiah, and a Christian. Is Messianic Judaism effectively a subdivision of Christianity?

Thank you in advance if you take the time to reply to this message!
#2
boakham Wrote:Is Messianic Judaism effectively a subdivision of Christianity?
It does not appear you are about to get a reply from a Jew.

In my opinion, to ask if Judaism is a subdivision of Christianity is to place the cart before the horse; so let me place the horse before the cart - where the horse should be!

I am not a Jew but as a Non-Demoninational Christian I can be certain that my Christianity and my Salvation is of Judaism. Without Judaism and the Jews there would be no Christianity and I would not have received my salvation.

Christian owe a huge debt to the Jews because it was unto them  a child was born, unto them a son was given (Isaiah 9:6) and that Child is Jesus the Saviour of the Jews and Christians alike.

I hope that will, at least, get things the right way round.

DavidJ
#3
boakham Wrote:Hello,


I am interested to know, from a Jewish point of view, what you consider to be the difference between a Jew who believes that Jesus was the Messiah, and a Christian. Is Messianic Judaism effectively a subdivision of Christianity?

Thank you in advance if you take the time to reply to this message!

Hello, sorry I did not see your question and was not aware someone
Jewish had not answered it.
My response will not be the standard one here because I am not
messianic...however, I am Jewish.
From a Jewish (not a messianic ) POV, a Jew who believes
in Jesus is no different from a Christian. He happens to be a Jew
who now holds Christian beliefs. From our view, MJ is a subset
of Christianity and it's theology is foreign to Judaism.
Hope this helps you out.....
#4
Sheitl Queen Wrote:From a Jewish (not a messianic ) POV, a Jew who believes
in Jesus is no different from a Christian.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. "(Romans 2:28-29).

Here the Apostle Paul, a pharisee (high ranking jewish scholar) by training, is saying that the true cicumcision is spiritual and is a matter of the heart and not a physical thing at all. This is nothing new really, and did not start in the New Testament. As far back as we have the recorded Word of God was this made evident.

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live." (Deuteronomy  30:6)

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." (Deut 10:16)

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah" (Jeremiah 4:4)
#5
DavidJ Wrote:
Sheitl Queen Wrote:From a Jewish (not a messianic ) POV, a Jew who believes
in Jesus is no different from a Christian.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. "(Romans 2:28-29).

Here the Apostle Paul, a pharisee (high ranking jewish scholar) by training, is saying that the true cicumcision is spiritual and is a matter of the heart and not a physical thing at all. This is nothing new really, and did not start in the New Testament. As far back as we have the recorded Word of God was this made evident.

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live." (Deuteronomy  30:6)

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." (Deut 10:16)

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah" (Jeremiah 4:4)

He was asking about the JewishPOV; that's what he got
from me. He was advised that this would not be the answers
others on the forum would give......Smile
#6
Sheitl Queen Wrote:He was asking about the JewishPOV; that's what he got
from me. He was advised that this would not be the answers
others on the forum would give......Smile
My reply was also a Jewish POV - Paul was both a Jew and a Christian - and remained a Pharisee as a Christian! Big Grin
#7
Dear Boakham,

Messianic Jews are really a part of the body of Christ as a whole not as a separate unit or subdivisions. The whole reason there are sub-denominations within the Christian community is that some chose not to stand firm to the teachings of Christ, leaving some with no other choice but to split from their respective groups. The whole crux of Judaism begins with the story of creation and Adam and Eve and how man was created for His pleasure and to have fellowship with Him. But through a series of disobedient acts recorded in the Pentateuch and Tenach man lost what was a perfect fellowship with God, but God through His grace always provided a way for man to return to Him. Whether we are Jews or Gentiles alike, we believe that Christ is the ultimate and final atonement for the sins of mankind at Jews for Jesus forum. I don't think Messianic Jews are ashamed to call themselves Christians I just think it is upsetting when Christians try to strip Jesus of His Jewish heritage. If it weren't for the Jewish prophets and God's establishment of a covenant through them, God as we know Him would cease to exist. Some Christians will tell you that Messianic Judaism is not Christianity at all and that such congregations aren't really needed. That is false. All they are, are Jews coming to the realization that Christ is the fulfillment of the previous covenants and promises made to them. Some still preach legalism but that's because they haven't discovered who they are yet in Christ. I think God is less concerned with doctrine and more concerned with relationships to each other and to Him. The Crusades didn't really help the cause in sharing His love either. Christ loves you just as much as he loves the Jews, but salvation came through the Jews. Gentiles are grafted into faith in God and have the Jews to thank for bringing them God's word in the "flesh" and written word in the Bible. I personally can't wait for the day when we will worship as one body again in the kingdom of heaven and I hope to see you there too! I think the reformation period in history did some good, but had the unintended consequence of dividing the believers rather than uniting them around biblical principles. For more information on how the Hebrew Scriptures were translated into Greek and other languages please go to: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org. The site also has a link to bring you back to this site. :razz:
#8
although I am no scholar...i am a Christian... in the bible it starts with the old testament, the Jews God's chosen people, Jesus was a jew and said to obey the laws, obey and honor your parents, he was an active jew and participated in the traditions... But even in the "End times Jews are set apart for in Revelations 7:1-8 that 144,000 Jews from all the tribes of Judah will be sealed for Jesus in the end times.

But it shouldn't matter by what name you call your religion, or God as long as its the same one, because there all all types of names for God, depending on what aspect of his grace you speak of...

Besides it should be an Honor and a privilege to call yourself a Jew, although they have been imprisoned and enslaved, God always helped them... because if you look at history anyone who has cursed the Jews has been  destroyed..yet the Jews still survive...
#9
I agree with that. I'm not Jewish, but I feel honored and humbled to share in the promises originally given to the Jewish people by G-d. For more information on the error of replacement theology please go to congregation Yeshuat Israel at: http://www.therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm. I'm also glad that I don't have to worry about breaking the 613 original laws and that their burden has been lifted in Christ. 613! When I thought of the law I thought only of the Ten Commandments!
#10
I come from a nonbelieving family of agnostics/ atheists. My father ; A genius; in worldy standards, almost the IQ of Einsteins. He convinced me of science, and evolution; as He said; We even see evolution in virus strains, etc, and Archeology proves what past is true. Science , and Archeology have proved other Religions false, but so far proved Judaism/ Christianity recorded events true.In that sense of Biblical proof ;He is correct He helped to invent computers, and guided missles, weapons of war.. He said we have energy ; a life force ; electromagnetic energy that when we die our lifes energy dissipates into the atmosphere. It sounded convincing to me?To believe in G-d was to accept that you are to weak to believe in yourself. He knows every answer to; Are you smarter than a fifth grader ; an American game show! He believed truth to be anything that could be proved. Later in my years I sufferred a head injury and was near death, and permanent brain damage. God / Jesus ; who I did not know anymore than any other religion; led me out to a river and as I traveled down the river I awoke. I then sufferred a fatal blood infection incurable from an IV, combined with legionaires pneumonia, and miracuosly was again completely healed, and Jesus now resides in my mind and body. You can't explain faith,and now my father believes there is a Creator; a designer, as not believing now ,is harder than to believe from his data, and the miracle of my restoration from G-d? but I ask you as I asked Him to say; Jesus if you are real thenI accept you as my Saviour, and show me what to do! You don't have anything to lose if He is not what He said He is, but if He is ; You have everything to lose. He gave you the choice?


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