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Why not be happy they believe in God?
#21
(06-18-2013, 01:48 PM)Tzuar1 Wrote:
(06-17-2013, 06:51 PM)Nachshon Wrote: I think you just quoted a verse that doesn't exist either? Where does the Tanakh say messiah is part of the Heavenly Court?
It doesn't, you don't understand what I was typing to Benyosef giving him the benefit of the doubt.
(06-15-2013, 08:59 PM)Tzuar1 Wrote: Where did you get that wisdom is part of the trinity? I didn't see that at all in the prior explanation.
I never said that, you don't understand what I'm saying to Benyosef.
Can you clarify what you're trying to say?
#22
(06-18-2013, 02:30 PM)benyosef Wrote: Verse 26 shows J breaking from the parable to speak for himself again. I did not alter the context.
Indeed, J also thought the kingdom was at hand (Mt 16:28, Mk 9:1, Lk 9:27), but was proven wrong when that entire generation died without J’s second coming.

Dear b....You didn't alter context, you just don't recognize when the parable ended, and Christ never "broke" away form the parable, Verse 28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem...the end.

Matthew 16:28. One, Christ said he has the power to allow one to live until he returns. Have you read that part b?

(06-18-2013, 02:30 PM)benyosef Wrote: Speaking of taking verses from context: Isa 50:6 is Isaiah saying how G-D will help him despite opposition to his prophetic speeches, not a reference to the Messiah. Nowhere is there a clear mention of the Messiah being rejected, nor do the prophets ever warn against rejecting the Messiah when he arrives. I’d say the reason Jesus did not complete all Messianic prophecies is the same reason Shabbetai Tzvi, Krishna, Bar Kochba, and General Patton did not complete the prophecies: none of them are the Messiah the Jewish prophets promised.

b, you do take things from context by inference, Isaiah 50:6 can't be about Isaiah, when was he spit upon and his hair plucked? You can only infer into context.

(06-18-2013, 02:30 PM)benyosef Wrote: Although the word “Semite” could technically refer to many races who have descended from Shem, the term “anti-Semitic” has come to mean exclusively anti-Jewish rhetoric (m-w.com). With this in mind, the gospels could be said to be anti-Semitic.

Then you're wrong based on a technicality.
#23
MessianicJew Wrote:Dear b....You didn't alter context, you just don't recognize when the parable ended, and Christ never "broke" away form the parable, Verse 28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem...the end.
Matthew 16:28. One, Christ said he has the power to allow one to live until he returns. Have you read that part b?

So we disagree on when the parable ended. That’s fine. At the very least he used this line positively to support his message.

Mt 16:28 doesn’t say he can keep people alive. Who is alive that was there when J said this?

MessianicJew Wrote:you do take things from context by inference, Isaiah 50:6 can't be about Isaiah, when was he spit upon and his hair plucked? You can only infer into context.

Such a question presumes that everything Isaiah did in his life is recorded in the Torah. Surely he prophesied more than 66 chapters in his life, and we have no idea the content of those prophecies nor the reaction to them. We do know that Jeremiah was cast into a pit for his prophecies (Jer. 38), so it’s not farfetched to assume that Isaiah occasionally encountered some hostility as well.
There still is no mention of the Messiah being rejected or a warning to not reject him.

MessianicJew Wrote:
benyosef Wrote:Although the word “Semite” could technically refer to many races who have descended from Shem, the term “anti-Semitic” has come to mean exclusively anti-Jewish rhetoric (m-w.com). With this in mind, the gospels could be said to be anti-Semitic.

Then you're wrong based on a technicality.

This aspect of the discussion is rooted in modern terms, so "anti-Semitic" is a valid choice of words. You can disagree about what “anti-Semitism” means if you like, I’ll rephrase my comment:
The gospels are anti-Semitic according to the current understanding of what "anti-Semitism" means in accepted dictionaries and lexicon, which is, anti-Jewish or, at the very least, not friendly to the Jews.
#24
(06-17-2013, 06:51 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Which english version of the Christian bible would you prefer to be quoted? I could quote the Hebrew - would that help you? Gen 1:26 is clear that a singlar G-d speaks, then talks to others.

וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים נַעֲשֶׂה אָדָם בְּצַלְמֵנוּ

It says let us. Us is plural, it doesn't say let like the beginning. "our" is plural.

(06-17-2013, 06:51 PM)Nachshon Wrote: I think you just quoted a verse that doesn't exist either? Where does the Tanakh say messiah is part of the Heavenly Court?

Where is heavenly court written in the Tanakh? Read Revelation for the throne that Christ will sit on and the what goes on in Heaven.

(06-17-2013, 06:51 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Where did you get that wisdom is part of the trinity? I didn't see that at all in the prior explanation.

I didn't say it is apart of the Trinity, I said you make it out to sound as if wisdom is apart of some version of your own Trinity.

You can't sin against wisdom, it isn't written in the Torah.

And now, my children, hearken to me, and fortunate are those who observe my ways.

Who is speaking in the verse above?
#25
(06-25-2013, 03:22 PM)Tzuar1 Wrote:
(06-17-2013, 06:51 PM)Nachshon Wrote: I think you just quoted a verse that doesn't exist either? Where does the Tanakh say messiah is part of the Heavenly Court?

Where is heavenly court written in the Tanakh? Read Revelation for the throne that Christ will sit on and the what goes on in Heaven.

I Kings 22:19. And he said, "Therefore, listen to the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord seated on His throne, and all the host of heaven were standing by Him on His right and on His left
#26
(06-25-2013, 03:22 PM)Tzuar1 Wrote:
(06-17-2013, 06:51 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Which english version of the Christian bible would you prefer to be quoted? I could quote the Hebrew - would that help you? Gen 1:26 is clear that a singlar G-d speaks, then talks to others.
וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים נַעֲשֶׂה אָדָם בְּצַלְמֵנוּ

It says let us. Us is plural, it doesn't say let like the beginning. "our" is plural.
I already conceded that. But, Hashem speaks in the singular. Clearly a singular G-d is speaking to others. Verse 1:27 says Hashem, He created them in His image, which is all singular. This should clarify the meaning in verse 1:26.

Look at all the verbs during the creation process in Genesis/Bereshit. you'll see all verbs are singular with respect to G-d. Why? Because context determines the meaning/understanding of a word. Since Hebrew requires verb agreement with a noun, then G-d is singular.

(06-25-2013, 03:22 PM)Tzuar1 Wrote:
(06-17-2013, 06:51 PM)Nachshon Wrote: I think you just quoted a verse that doesn't exist either? Where does the Tanakh say messiah is part of the Heavenly Court?
Where is heavenly court written in the Tanakh? Read Revelation for the throne that Christ will sit on and the what goes on in Heaven.
Revelations is not Tanakh. Is there a source for this in Tanakh?

(06-25-2013, 03:22 PM)Tzuar1 Wrote:
(06-17-2013, 06:51 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Where did you get that wisdom is part of the trinity? I didn't see that at all in the prior explanation.
I didn't say it is apart of the Trinity, I said you make it out to sound as if wisdom is apart of some version of your own Trinity.

You can't sin against wisdom, it isn't written in the Torah.

And now, my children, hearken to me, and fortunate are those who observe my ways.

Who is speaking in the verse above?
Actually, I didn't say this. Someone else did. Though, if you follow his explanation, I think he clarifies his position.
#27
Tzuar1 Wrote:You can't sin against wisdom, it isn't written in the Torah.
And now, my children, hearken to me, and fortunate are those who observe my ways.
Who is speaking in the verse above?

It is never written that you can sin against the Messiah, so who is speaking in Proverbs 8?

"Does not wisdom cry, and understanding put forth her voice? She stands in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. She cries at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things." (8:1-6)

We see wisdom is the speaker in Proverbs 8, giving advice and urging the sons of man to observe her ways. The Torah says it is possible to sin against wisdom (8:36), so the question is: How? Answer: Acting unwisely.
#28
(05-26-2013, 04:12 PM)Tzuar1 Wrote: It proves plurality and not singularity. The NIV removes entire verses of the NT, they're not an authority, and as you can see they completely skirt around the word "us".

Well they have some company.

This was posted by someone on another forum in response to this question -

Well-known Christian scholars (none of whom are liberal) acknowledge that it is being used in Genesis 1:26 and elsewhere, and it has nothing to do with a triune godhead.

All that the Hebrew version of the "Let us make" means is a plurality of majesty, such as when the head of a country or organization makes a declaration on behalf of the entire entity saying something like, "We have decided to ...". Here are the Christian scholarly resources that agree with this:

G. J. Wenham: "Christians have traditionally seen (Genesis 1:26) as adumbrating [foreshadowing] the Trinity. It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author."
[Word Biblical Commentary on Genesis, Word Books, 1987, p. 27]

The NIV Study Bible: "us...our...our. God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing his crowning work to the members of his heavenly court (see 322; 11:7; Isa 6:8; see also I Ki 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jer 23:18)"
[Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1985, p. 7]

The Ryrie Study Bible: Us...Our. Pluralis of majesty.
[Charles Caldwell Ryrie (Dallas Theological Seminary), Chicago: Moody Press, 1978, p. 9]

Liberty Annotated Study Bible: "The plural pronoun us is most likely a majestic plural from the standpoint of Hebrew grammar and syntax."
[Jerry Falwell (Executive Director), Lynchburg: Liberty University, 1988, p. 8]

Keil and Delitzsch: "The plural 'We' was regarded by the fathers and earlier theologians almost unanimously as indicative of the Trinity: modern commentators, on the contrary, regard it either as pluralis majestatis... No other explanation is left, therefore, than to regard it as a pluralis majestatis..."
[Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament, Peabody: Hendrickson, 1989, Vol. I, p. 62]

So according to all the Jewish sages and even some of the leading Christian scholars "us" is referring to the heavenly court.

Who determines who the "authority" is? I would think the people who speak the language and who the Torah was given to meet the criteria.
#29
(06-27-2013, 01:08 PM)searchinmyroots Wrote:
(06-25-2013, 03:22 PM)Tzuar1 Wrote:
(06-17-2013, 06:51 PM)Nachshon Wrote: I think you just quoted a verse that doesn't exist either? Where does the Tanakh say messiah is part of the Heavenly Court?
Where is heavenly court written in the Tanakh? Read Revelation for the throne that Christ will sit on and the what goes on in Heaven.
I Kings 22:19. And he said, "Therefore, listen to the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord seated on His throne, and all the host of heaven were standing by Him on His right and on His left
Okay, the verse above says Hashem sits on the throne, not messiah. Where does Tanakh say messiah sits on the heavenly throne?
#30
(06-28-2013, 05:25 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(06-27-2013, 01:08 PM)searchinmyroots Wrote:
(06-25-2013, 03:22 PM)Tzuar1 Wrote:
(06-17-2013, 06:51 PM)Nachshon Wrote: I think you just quoted a verse that doesn't exist either? Where does the Tanakh say messiah is part of the Heavenly Court?
Where is heavenly court written in the Tanakh? Read Revelation for the throne that Christ will sit on and the what goes on in Heaven.
I Kings 22:19. And he said, "Therefore, listen to the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord seated on His throne, and all the host of heaven were standing by Him on His right and on His left
Okay, the verse above says Hashem sits on the throne, not messiah. Where does Tanakh say messiah sits on the heavenly throne?

Messiah isn't even written in all the places where you claim it is about Messiah! So it doesn't say Messiah sits on the throne, but the Tanakh doesn't specifically say that King David is used as some type of equivocation to Messiah either. Nor does it specifically say anything regarding Messiah, other than Immanuel and the Anointed One in Daniel. That is it. Everything else is extrapolated by your sect. In the NT the Father allows it of Christ to sit on the throne. And, Apostle John seen "many" thrones in Heaven. And, it is written that the 12 Apostles that walked with Christ will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. So if you don't believe that as well, there really isn't a point to telling you. You have your mind made up, so what is the point of speaking with you?


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