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Why not be happy they believe in God?
#1
Why do Jews for Judaism and anti-Missionary's have to focus upon the fact that many people believe Christ is the Son of God? Why not just be happy they believe in the same God as you?

Why not be happy that the Christians living today are not the same as those living hundreds of years ago.

Why not be happy that the literacy rate is higher, and more people are able to read the New Testament for themselves and the result is far more support for Israel than non-support?

Why not be happy about all of that? I know I am. And I would be even if I were Ultra-Orthodox, and I have a Orthodox Grand dad, so I type truth.
#2
Quote:Why do Jews for Judaism and anti-Missionary's have to focus upon the fact that many people believe Christ is the Son of God? Why not just be happy they believe in the same God as you?

Why not be happy that the Christians living today are not the same as those living hundreds of years ago.

Why not be happy that the literacy rate is higher, and more people are able to read the New Testament for themselves and the result is far more support for Israel than non-support?

Why not be happy about all of that? I know I am. And I would be even if I were Ultra-Orthodox, and I have a Orthodox Grand dad, so I type truth.

Indeed I like the approach. I'm often happy with a lot of Christians, and Judaism does not claim that everybody has to be Jewish, in order to worship the same Almighty.

But it's not 100's of years ago, 67 years ago their were still Christians who did put non-Christians in camps. Even the native Americans were put in camps partly motivated by the speeches of some German-Dutch-Reformed ministers who claimed that ''Indians'' can't be human, nor be converted to Christianity.
Still these kind of Christians do exist. In the 1990's the Vatican Ambasador to the U.S. had to spread that Slovenia and Croatia belong to the Catholic region of Europe and that it was one reason why to seperate and attack Serbia. Still there are Christians who claim to want to kill Jews, or say other kind of anti-Semitic slogans.
It's naieve to think History would not repeat itself. But indeed people should strive for better connections.
The literacy rate is higher, and since the 2nd Vatican concilea Catholics are allowed to read the bible, and anti-Semitic texts were deleted from prayers. BUT, since a few years (because of the rightwing movements within the Church) those texts are replaced back in prayerbooks.

Ultra Orthodox has nothing to do with it, they also have different approaches according to what group you belong to, and what the atmosphere is of the time.
To type truth, everbody can claim that.
#3
(09-24-2012, 02:43 PM)Yetzirah231 Wrote: Indeed I like the approach. I'm often happy with a lot of Christians, and Judaism does not claim that everybody has to be Jewish, in order to worship the same Almighty.

You may just be the only one on here to say such a thing. In this regard, you definately live like a Jew! Thanks for saying what you said.
#4
Yetzirah..why do you say Christians put people in camps etc...if you a referring to the roman church and the protestants why do you call them Christian? They do not followthe words of God in the Holy Bible, and do not follow the teachings of Jesus so how can you call them Christian? If they were Christian then they would not be involved in wars and atrocities..because Jesus teachings are a Gospel of Love, which is the basis for the New Covenant...true followers of Jesus follow the words "pray for your enemies, love your enemies"....Matthew 5
#5
(10-02-2012, 08:49 PM)John 14.6 Wrote: Yetzirah..why do you say Christians put people in camps etc...if you a referring to the roman church and the protestants why do you call them Christian? They do not followthe words of God in the Holy Bible, and do not follow the teachings of Jesus so how can you call them Christian? If they were Christian then they would not be involved in wars and atrocities..because Jesus teachings are a Gospel of Love, which is the basis for the New Covenant...true followers of Jesus follow the words "pray for your enemies, love your enemies"....Matthew 5

I totally agree. Its simpley wrong to label one with unchristian fruits a "Christian". That is perverting the what Christianity is and IMO spreads hate and ignorance. Its no different than one who stereotypes and group in a negative way. Its all lashon hara. How can we speak against unjustice in the form of Antisemitism, supression of native americans, blacks, .. and yet use the same tactics? The victim becomes the aggressor in such a pattern. The source of Christianity is the bible not man, the catholic church, or any earthly political power structure.
There are the righteous of the nations but I think we can be to quick to say another worships the same G-d as we. Not everyone that claims a faith walks in that faith. And two that Do walk in two Differ faiths that Conflict do NOT worship the same G-d. Example: islam doesnt Praise Hashem. Its only when there is harmony that there is peace.
#6
Jews for Judaism and other counter-missionary groups are not bothered by people preaching Christianity. They certainly have a right to teach what they want to whom they want, and when a missionary is able to steer a pagan from polytheism to monotheism, that's a big step in the right direction. What bothers mainstream Jewish groups is when these born-again, Evangelical missionary groups target the Jewish People and tell them that in order to be a good Jew one must believe in Jesus. Such a statement ignores, and even deliberately hides, the fact that Judaism and Christianity are completely different religions with virtually no overlap between their teachings.

I say "virtually no overlap" because I know Christians differ as to G-D's nature: some say there is only one G-D and Jesus is simply the Messiah, while others pay lip-service to the "one G-D" idea, but say within that "one" there is a trinity, with the three being co-equal and co-eternal, a concept Judaism views as complete idolatry. Indeed, the Torah teaches that the Messiah is supposed to fear G-D, not actually be G-D (Isaiah 11:2-3). But when it comes to matters of the commandments, the role of the Messiah, G-D's plan for mankind's betterment, and pretty much any other theological issue, Judaism and Christianity are like oil and water.

We could argue that Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity is because Islam does not believe G-D is any form of a plurality. As I learned it, however, Islam is also idolatry because while they worship the god who spoke to Muhammad, the G-D of Israel never spoke to Muhammad.
#7
(05-06-2013, 04:18 PM)benyosef Wrote: We could argue that Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity is because Islam does not believe G-D is any form of a plurality.

Just because of that you would argue they are closer?

Islam traces Abraham to Ishmael and claims that Israel doesn't have a right to exist. Sura says to kill the Jew, the Christian and the infidel. That the tree would cry out here is a Jew come kill him. How could you or why would you want to argue that Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity just because they don't believe in plurality of God? It would then fall under a Christians misunderstanding from your view point. Islam doesn't even recognize that Israel is the chosen people because of Abraham and Sarahs' birth to Isaac!

Why would you assert such a thing? Would you retract that at all?
#8
Tzuar1, we could also argue that Christianity is closer to Judaism because Christianity predates Islam. It is true Islam believes Israel are not the Chosen People, but the Church believes Israel was replaced and that they (Christians) are the new Israel, so there's not much difference between Islam and Christianity in this regard.

The first thing G-D tells the Jews at Sinai is that He is G-D. It never says "they are God," nor does the text ever read "And God spoke (using a plural verb) to Moses...," but whenever G-D speaks or acts, it is always in the singular. Nowehere in Torah does G-D say there are many gods with Him or that He works as part of a godhead.

I'm not showing special favor to Islam, but in the narrow arena of G-D's nature, Islam can be said to be slightly more accurate than Christianity, and thus closer to Judaism.

But you are correct: It is rather unusual to say either religion can be "close to Judaism," as both have a storied history of brutal persecution of my people. Nevertheless, I retract nothing.
#9
(05-17-2013, 11:25 AM)benyosef Wrote: Tzuar1, we could also argue that Christianity is closer to Judaism because Christianity predates Islam.

Would you want to argue though? Isn't it much better that it is a fact? These aren't arguments, it is a fact that Sura says to kill the Christian, the Jew and the infidel. Also, it is a fact that Jesus pre-dates Islam, Jesus is a Jew and claimed to be the Son of Adonai of Israel. So it would be much more factual than argumentative. Which is more sincere a fact of life or an argument?

(05-17-2013, 11:25 AM)benyosef Wrote: It is true Islam believes Israel are not the Chosen People, but the Church believes Israel was replaced and that they (Christians) are the new Israel, so there's not much difference between Islam and Christianity in this regard.

Since you took the time to make such a broad sweeping statement about all of Christendom and what 'the Church' believes. Please explain the meaning of 'the Church'. Because to me, the Church is Jesus the Christ. Where did Jesus say he believes Israel was replaced and that they (Christians) are the new Israel?

(05-17-2013, 11:25 AM)benyosef Wrote: The first thing G-D tells the Jews at Sinai is that He is G-D. It never says "they are God," nor does the text ever read "And God spoke (using a plural verb) to Moses...," but whenever G-D speaks or acts, it is always in the singular. Nowehere in Torah does G-D say there are many gods with Him or that He works as part of a godhead.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."

Plural.

Proverbs 8 chapter 7 verses 23-36. Plural here too. Surely you don't think this is about wisdom do you?

(05-17-2013, 11:25 AM)benyosef Wrote: I'm not showing special favor to Islam, but in the narrow arena of G-D's nature, Islam can be said to be slightly more accurate than Christianity, and thus closer to Judaism.

Because of Godhead? They break the ten commandments of thou shall not kill!! How can you say they're more accurate? It is appalling what Islam says, they say Moses wasn't the #1 Prophet. And you think they have a proper understanding about God? All because it isn't written in their book 'Godhead'. Have you ever done any research as to who exactly Apostle Paul spoke to in Rome and what year and time and under what Caesar? How exactly do you think he was suppose to explain to people understanding without trying to relate within the culture of the times?

(05-17-2013, 11:25 AM)benyosef Wrote: Nevertheless, I retract nothing.

I believe you're bias. And even perhaps bitter against Christians.
#10
It seems, Tzuar1, you misunderstood my comment. The specifics I mentioned are not up for debate; I was merely explaining that Islam has elements similar to Judaism (such as social justice, a lunar calendar, and one God), as does Christianity (love and compassion and a solar calendar), so while one could argue the point, neither are truly close to Judaism. The Quran tells Muslims to kill Jews, and Jesus tells his followers to kill those who would not accept him as their leader. Since the NT seems to indicate Jesus was always at odds with Torah-true Judaism (the Pharisees), and keeping in mind the fourth gospel’s anti-Semitic rhetoric, Christianity’s and Islam’s main texts have something in common. This could explain the Church’s (which I understand to include Catholics and all who espouse elements of their doctrines) early persecution of Jews, as many probably took John as implicit permission to massacre Jews and other “infidels” (like the Crusaders did). As time went on, and the Church realized “the cross or the sword” wasn’t working as an effective evangelizing tool, they became more civil in their dealings with Jews—for the most part. Meanwhile, Islam was picking up the pace and, true to their G-D-given nature (Gen 16:12), thought “the Quran or the sword” would be a viable option, seeing as Muhammad’s attempts to convert Jews was about as successful as Matthew’s.

Again, they do not have a “proper” understanding about G-D, for G-D never spoke to Muhammad, but it is closer to the truth than a trinity.

While G-D does say “let us make man,” does this prove a trinity? It seems even some Trinitarians think not, because the NIV Study Bible, commenting on this verse, says that “God speaks as the Creator-King, announcing his crowning work to the members of his heavenly court (see 322; 11:7; Isa 6:8; see also I Ki 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jer 23:18).”

Further, as I said, whenever G-D speaks or acts, the verb is always in the singular, never in the plural. 1:26 begins "And G-D said" (וַיֹּאמֶר), and verse 27 says, “So G-D created (וַיִּבְרָא) man in His own image, in the image of G-D He created (בָּרָא) him; male and female He created (בָּרָא) them.”
All verbs are in the singular.

Proverbs 8:23-36 does not indicate the subject is a plurality, for none of the plural verbs refer to the subject. Do I think this speaks of Wisdom? Why not? It says Wisdom is the one speaking. Yet Christians—I assume you, too—would say this speaks of the Messiah. Aside from not saying so explicitly, verse 30 says that Wisdom “always rejoices before G-D,” and it uses the feminine form of the word “rejoices” (מְשַׂחֶקֶת). The Hebrew word for "wisdom" ("חָכְמָה") is in the feminine, so this makes sense. Is the Messiah supposed to be a woman?


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