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Is.53 (seed)?
#1
Hi, I am new to "JewsforJesus" and attempted a search on this subject before posting this thread and didnt find it so please forgive me if it is a repeat.
Is.53:9-10 KJV

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

I'm basically interested in an educated commentary on the context of "seed" here.
Zera/ zeh'-rah/(H#2233) -seed; figuratively fruit, plant, sowing time, posterity: - X carnally, child, fruitful, seed (-time), sowing-time.

I take it the "see" could correspond with "see" in Is.52:15 (Is.53:1). But as to the structure of Is.53:10 is the seed the seed of Hashem (Messiah), or is the seed mentioned somehow speaking of a seed of Messiah (figuratively)? Those are the two i see as the subject (Hashem and Yeshua HaMashiach) of this area but interested in any thoughts that can be supported as to who's (what) "seed" is being considered.

I tend to think "seed" is speaking about Messiah being the seed (*Ps.22:29-31)of The Father, but wanting to better understand the structure of Is.53:10. When taking the Chaldee Targum into consideration I tend to scrath my head as it reads: "they (his Seed) shall see the kingdom of their Messiah.

I am confident the answer (structure) shall be revealed to me as all my questions are answered in due time (Praise Hashem) and i tend to think i am just making this to complex for myself at the moment. Thanks for any feedback!
#2
And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of Sabbath had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and been made like to Gomorrha.

Romans 9:29
#3
Thanks Again Messianic!
#4
"Seed," when used in Scripture, is a reference to literal, biological children, never to disciples or followers. A classic example would be in Genesis 15:

1. After these things the word of the L-RD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your reward is exceedingly great.”
2. But Abram said, “L-RD G-D, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house (וּבֶן-מֶשֶׁק בֵּיתִי) is the Damascene Eliezer?”
3. Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring (זָרַע); indeed one born in my house (בֶן-בֵּיתִי) is my heir!”
4. And behold, the word of the L-RD came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.”
5. Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants (זַרְעֶךָ) be.”

Isaiah 53 cannot be speaking about Jesus, for he did not have physical, literal, biological children.
#5
Thanks sonofJoseph but according to a "Hebrew English Lexicon" we get:
1) seed, sowing, offspring
1a) a sowing
1b) seed
1c) semen virile
1d) offspring, descendants, posterity, children
1e) of moral quality
1e1) a practitioner of righteousness (fig.)
1f) sowing time

From a "Hebrew-Chaldee Dictionary" of the Tanakh (OT) we see:
seed; figuratively fruit, plant, sowing time, posterity:— X carnally, child, fruitful, seed (-time), sowing-time.

and Futhermore in a "Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries" we see:
carnally*(1), child(1), children(3), descendants(105), descent(1), family(6), grain(3), line(1), nation(1), offspring's offspring(1), origin(1), race(1), seedtime(1), seminal(4), seminal(1), son(1), time(1), what you sow(1)...

I personally dont know of a scripture that doesnt have a spiritual (figurative) layer. Linguistic documention over & over says zera CAN be taken figuratively thus doesnt support any claim that its Only 2 be taken "literal" In some English circles it is even translated "nation" at times N this type Figurative concept the Kingdom (King & his domain) of Israel is called a Begotten Son of Hashem n Ps.2:6-7.

When i speak of the Authority of Messiah i tend 2 be thinking spiritually The literal (phy) man isnt really my personal focuss His Authority is King of Righteousness (king of Israel).
I dont know any1 who claims Yeshua has literal physical offspring But as far as a Figurative relation goes, would the dominon (Nation/Israel) have no relation 2 its King or to G-d? The same dominon that most directly relate 2 seed here (Is.53). However all this maybe a side note n my personal seeking cause i'm more interested n who the seed is than who it isnt!
Since we have gathered that u only see zera here as a literal (physical) seed can u now tell me who the seed is & who's seed is it!!!? According 2 ur concept the seed Cant be that of Hashem or Messiah
I submitted a few options & ur responce wasnt 2 any of them Maybe my presentation was not laid out correctly I asked r we 2 see the seed as the seed of G-d (seed being Messiah)? The seed of G-d ("Figuratively") as Israel? (or seed of messiah "figuratively" as Israel?

However on the subject of literal zera/seed I would be interested 2 know who u say the literal seed is of the serpent according to Gen.3:15 I dont know if u r also the 1 that focussed on zera only in the (phy)literal in another post currently (didnt catch the name)but if not perhaps yall both listen 2 the same rabbi

On the section of Gen 15 u shared, i dont see it claiming that zera is always Only 2 be taken literal It simpley says that Abram communicates that since he has no seed that another will be his heir
Nice 2 meet u "benyoseph"
#6
Also just wanted to post the verse i read right after leaving this discussion.
I wanted to look to see if this verse could have any relation and interestingly i found that the rendering of Gen.49:10 in the Sept. is a bit different.Instead of it reading "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah nor a lawgiver from between his feet until Shiloh come: and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be."-KJV The Septuagint reads:
οὐκ ἐκλείψει ἄρχων ἐξ ιουδα καὶ ἡγούμενος ἐκ τῶν μηρῶν αὐτοῦ ἕως ἂν ἔλθῃ τὰ ἀποκείμενα αὐτῷ καὶ αὐτὸς προσδοκία ἐθνῶν or "from his thighs" i.e. "his seed" as compared with Deut.28:57 uses the same in relation to a woman's offspring.
#7
Refugee, it is nice to meet you, as well.

Unless I am missing a usage somewhere, whenever the Torah uses the word “זָרַע” (“zera/zara”) in regard to people, it is always a reference to literal descendants, never to disciples or those whom one influences. By contrast, the word “בֶן” (“ben”) in Torah generally speaks of those over whom one holds influence (like Psalm 2, where David says G-D calls him His son, although David was literally Jesse’s son), but it occasionally refers to actual children (like Genesis 4:17). Genesis 15 is an example of the prime difference between the two. Another example is Genesis 17:12: G-D tells Abraham that circumcision will be a covenant between G-D and Abraham and his descendants (“זַרְעֲךָ”). Indeed, Jews even today circumcise their sons at eight days. Then, G-D tells him to also circumcise those among his household “אֲשֶׁר לֹא מִזַּרְעֲךָ הוּא” who are not of his seed, showing that those over whom he has direct influence are not considered “זָרַע”.

Your dictionary definitions show the above usage as the primary definitions of “זָרַע”. I can’t think of an example of “זָרַע” being used to speak of disciples or the like. Can you think of any?

Bringing this all back to Isa 53, context shows very clearly that the Servant in Isaiah 53 is the Nation of Israel, for we see that throughout the Servant Songs (starting from Isaiah 40 and going through 54), the prophet constantly moves from singular to plural and back to singular when speaking of this righteous Servant of the L-RD. While many people can be spoken of in the singular (e.g. Exodus 20), an individual is never spoken of in the plural. When we focus on 53:10, G-D says when the Servant admits guilt, he is given blessings of literal seed, long days, and G-D’s direct assistance on the work of his hands. Who seed is it, you asked? The seed of the Children of Israel.

The Hebrew phrases used in Gen 49:10 and Deut 28:57 are indeed identical, the only difference being than one is masculine and the other feminine (for obvious reasons). Gen 49 speaks of the line of kings staying in the family, and thus the phrase “between his legs/thighs” can be used. Deut 28 is a gruesome reference to literal children, describing the deteriorating circumstances surrounding National Israel’s punishments when they forsake G-D's Torah.
#8
(01-31-2013, 01:26 AM)Refugee Wrote: Thanks Again Messianic!

You're welcome. I believe seed refers to Jesus Christ, once a Olive tree is literally cut down, shoots grow up out of the trunk. You can see this in Israel and with the Olive tree. I believe this is the picture of the shoot of Jesse being Messiah. Which I believe is Christ, and the Olive tree is Israel. So then once we truly believe, we are reborn by being grafted back into the Olive tree which represents Israel through Jesus. John the Baptist said to the non believing Jew that the axe is laid to the tree Matthew 3:10. I believe Israel has been cut off. Romans 11:17 This is how we become children of Abraham and sons of God once again and are redeemed through Jesus the Christ. When reading Romans, Apostle Paul says both the Jew and Gentile are grafted in, the Jew to their natural branch and the Gentile grafted in to the branches where the rest of Israel have been cut off.

Sorry if this is repetitive, you've probably heard it before.
#9
If one were to read and put stock in the Greek Testament, I can understand why one would come to the conclusion that Israel has been cut off. But G-D has another opinion on this matter, and the word of the L-RD stands forever (Isa 40:8):

"And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them: for I am the L-RD their G-D." (Leviticus 26:44)

"If those ordinances depart from before Me, says the L-RD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever. Thus says the L-RD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, says the L-RD." (Jeremiah 31:36-37)

Israel will always be G-D's nation.
#10
(03-18-2013, 08:45 PM)benyosef Wrote: If one were to read and put stock in the Greek Testament, I can understand why one would come to the conclusion that Israel has been cut off. But G-D has another opinion on this matter, and the word of the L-RD stands forever (Isa 40:8):

"And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them: for I am the L-RD their G-D." (Leviticus 26:44)

"If those ordinances depart from before Me, says the L-RD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever. Thus says the L-RD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, says the L-RD." (Jeremiah 31:36-37)

Israel will always be G-D's nation.

Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Leviticus 26:44 only can happen if what is written in 41 and 42.

Isaiah 10

20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Leviticus 26:22
I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.

The belief in the New Testament is that the remnant spoken of are those Jews who placed faith in Christ at the time he walked the earth and those Jews and Gentiles who do so today. Those Jews will then make up the Israeli nation.


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