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Levitical Marriage?
#21
MJ:

Numbers 12:1,8,11 shows that Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses, and sinned in doing so. So, if your thinking is that Moses sinned in marrying Tzipporah, a Cushite, then why does Hashem tell them both that they sinned against Moses?

Actually, looking at the Hebrew more closely, verse 12:1 only says "Vatedaber" which means "And spoke", and "al-odeot" which means "on account of". So, verse 12:1 actually says, "And spoke Miriam and Aaron with Moses on account of the Cushite woman that he took, because a Cushite women he took."
#22
(04-23-2013, 04:56 PM)Nachshon Wrote: MJ:

Numbers 12:1,8,11 shows that Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses, and sinned in doing so. So, if your thinking is that Moses sinned in marrying Tzipporah, a Cushite, then why does Hashem tell them both that they sinned agaiinst Moses?

I disagree, it shows because they sinned because they didn't have fear.

Unfortunately you miss the details, either out of bias because you feel it bolsters your argument, or out of being naive to detail for reasons of sin.

God just doesn't say "You sinned" He gives reasons for sin: idolatry, adultrey.

In this case it was: no fear for speaking against a Prophet.

Not just "You sinned."
#23
(04-28-2013, 09:19 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(04-23-2013, 04:56 PM)Nachshon Wrote: MJ:

Numbers 12:1,8,11 shows that Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses, and sinned in doing so. So, if your thinking is that Moses sinned in marrying Tzipporah, a Cushite, then why does Hashem tell them both that they sinned agaiinst Moses?

I disagree, it shows because they sinned because they didn't have fear.

Unfortunately you miss the details, either out of bias because you feel it bolsters your argument, or out of being naive to detail for reasons of sin.

God just doesn't say "You sinned" He gives reasons for sin: idolatry, adultrey.

In this case it was: no fear for speaking against a Prophet.

Not just "You sinned."
Yes, they should have feared to speak out against a Prophet of Hashem, verse 12:8. Why? Because whatever they said they sinned against Moses verse 12:11. It's pretty straight-forward.

To your point about G-d being specific. Why doesn't he state clearly that Moses sin was marrying a Cushite?

Let's look at Numbers 12:1 in Hebrew and then translate it.

Num 12:1 וַתְּדַבֵּ֨ר מִרְיָ֤ם וְאַהֲרֹן֙ בְּמֹשֶׁ֔ה עַל־אֹדֹ֛ות הָאִשָּׁ֥ה הַכֻּשִׁ֖ית אֲשֶׁ֣ר לָקָ֑ח כִּֽי־אִשָּׁ֥ה כֻשִׁ֖ית לָקָֽח׃
Starting from the right going left - "Vatedaber (And spoke) Miryam Ve-Aharon (and Aaron) beMoshe (with Moses) al-adiot (on account) ha-Cushite (the Cushite) asher (that) laqakh (he took) qi-ishah (a woman) Cushite.

If you do a word search on the Hebrew words "vatedaber" and "al-adiot" you'll see the translation is correct.

Reading the Hebrew, there is no attack or reprimand of Moses about his wife, only that they are talking to him about his wife. What about specifically is not said. But, 12:2 points to the issue being about prophecy. I don't think Moses could have been actively engaged in prophecy with Hashem if he was living in a constant state of sin being married to a forbidden woman.

But regardless of what was said, Miriam and Aaron sinned against Moses 12:11.
#24
(04-29-2013, 05:38 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Yes, they should have feared to speak out against a Prophet of Hashem, verse 12:8. Why? Because whatever they said they sinned against Moses verse 12:11. It's pretty straight-forward.

It has nothing to do with what they said.


And asher doesn't mean "that" either.
#25
(05-18-2013, 12:59 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(04-29-2013, 05:38 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Yes, they should have feared to speak out against a Prophet of Hashem, verse 12:8. Why? Because whatever they said they sinned against Moses verse 12:11. It's pretty straight-forward.

It has nothing to do with what they said.


And asher doesn't mean "that" either.
I showed you the translation for verse Numbers 12:1 word for word. What issue did you find?

Asher can mean several things. You have to look at the vowel points to know which word is being used given the same shoresh, or Hebrew root word.

Asher can mean that, which, who, depending on the context. And, depending on vowels, the shoresh can be used to mean happy, or blessed.
#26
(05-19-2013, 05:38 PM)Nachshon Wrote: I showed you the translation for verse Numbers 12:1 word for word. What issue did you find?

2 And they said, Has the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? has he not spoken also by us?

The following verses do not say that the above was right or wrong. It is that they didn't have fear.
#27
(05-20-2013, 04:39 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(05-19-2013, 05:38 PM)Nachshon Wrote: I showed you the translation for verse Numbers 12:1 word for word. What issue did you find?

2 And they said, Has the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? has he not spoken also by us?

The following verses do not say that the above was right or wrong. It is that they didn't have fear.
The issue is that Aaron and Miriam thought they were on a comparable prophetic level to Moses.

You didn't show any reprimand of Moses.
#28
(05-21-2013, 06:07 PM)Nachshon Wrote: The issue is that Aaron and Miriam thought they were on a comparable prophetic level to Moses.

You just keep making stuff up. You weren't there to say what they thought.

(05-21-2013, 06:07 PM)Nachshon Wrote: You didn't show any reprimand of Moses.

Because there wasn't one written. Zipporah is not an Israelite though. That is written. And Deuteronomy 7:3 says you are not to take their daughters for your sons. That is written. And it isn't consistent with how Moses himself chose a wife. Now if he had exempt status, that may have been possible. But you assume because there wasn't a reprimand then there wasn't a breach of the law.
#29
(06-04-2013, 07:35 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(05-21-2013, 06:07 PM)Nachshon Wrote: The issue is that Aaron and Miriam thought they were on a comparable prophetic level to Moses.
You just keep making stuff up. You weren't there to say what they thought.
You keep bringing up this point about me not being back in history 3000 yrs back to have witnessed the events. That's why the Torah and Tanakh documents things for us. Again, Num 12:2,6 point to prophecy being the issue. I keep quoting scripture and verses.

(06-04-2013, 07:35 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(05-21-2013, 06:07 PM)Nachshon Wrote: You didn't show any reprimand of Moses.
Because there wasn't one written. Zipporah is not an Israelite though. That is written. And Deuteronomy 7:3 says you are not to take their daughters for your sons. That is written. And it isn't consistent with how Moses himself chose a wife. Now if he had exempt status, that may have been possible. But you assume because there wasn't a reprimand then there wasn't a breach of the law.
So, I'm glad you agree that Moses was not reprimanded because that was not your original stance which means Moses did not sin in taking Zipporah as a wife. The Torah is clear concerning Moses sin at the waters of Meribah, Deut 32:51. In Ezra 9:2 clearly spells out the sin of imtermarriage and those involved in it, so if Moses was guilty of this, it would have been clearly stated in the Torah as well.

As far as Deut 7:3, you're not looking at the context of the verse. Yes, Israel is suppossed to avoid intermarriage with those who worship other gods, verse Deut 7:4, but the context shows specific nations, of which Moses did not marry into. He married a Medianite, Ex 2:16:

Deut 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
#30
(06-05-2013, 09:33 PM)Nachshon Wrote: You keep bringing up this point about me not being back in history 3000 yrs back to have witnessed the events. That's why the Torah and Tanakh documents things for us. Again, Num 12:2,6 point to prophecy being the issue. I keep quoting scripture and verses.

It isn't prophecy, they spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman, for he married an Ethiopian woman. That detail was written for a reason.

(06-05-2013, 09:33 PM)Nachshon Wrote: So, I'm glad you agree that Moses was not reprimanded because that was not your original stance which means Moses did not sin in taking Zipporah as a wife. The Torah is clear concerning Moses sin at the waters of Meribah, Deut 32:51. In Ezra 9:2 clearly spells out the sin of imtermarriage and those involved in it, so if Moses was guilty of this, it would have been clearly stated in the Torah as well.

As far as Deut 7:3, you're not looking at the context of the verse. Yes, Israel is suppossed to avoid intermarriage with those who worship other gods, verse Deut 7:4, but the context shows specific nations, of which Moses did not marry into. He married a Medianite, Ex 2:16:

Deut 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

A Midianite cannot enter the congregation to his 10th generation. And it didn't say Zipporah was a Midianite in Numbers it says Cush. Yet it says something different in what you quoted.


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