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Levitical Marriage?
#31
(06-07-2013, 06:07 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(06-05-2013, 09:33 PM)Nachshon Wrote: You keep bringing up this point about me not being back in history 3000 yrs back to have witnessed the events. That's why the Torah and Tanakh documents things for us. Again, Num 12:2,6 point to prophecy being the issue. I keep quoting scripture and verses.

It isn't prophecy, they spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman, for he married an Ethiopian woman. That detail was written for a reason.

(06-05-2013, 09:33 PM)Nachshon Wrote: So, I'm glad you agree that Moses was not reprimanded because that was not your original stance which means Moses did not sin in taking Zipporah as a wife. The Torah is clear concerning Moses sin at the waters of Meribah, Deut 32:51. In Ezra 9:2 clearly spells out the sin of imtermarriage and those involved in it, so if Moses was guilty of this, it would have been clearly stated in the Torah as well.

As far as Deut 7:3, you're not looking at the context of the verse. Yes, Israel is suppossed to avoid intermarriage with those who worship other gods, verse Deut 7:4, but the context shows specific nations, of which Moses did not marry into. He married a Medianite, Ex 2:16:

Deut 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

A Midianite cannot enter the congregation to his 10th generation. And it didn't say Zipporah was a Midianite in Numbers it says Cush. Yet it says something different in what you quoted.
I'm surpised you challenged this point without showing the verse to back your claims.

The verse you meant was:

Deut 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:

These verses refer to the masculine form of the nations in question, so please don't bring up Ruth. I've shown you the evidence in another thread already.

Exodus 2:15-16 says the folks were in the land of Midian and Jethro was a Priest of Midian.

Numbers 12:1 says Zipporah was a Cushite. In Hebrew the root for cushite is " כּוּשׁ", which can mean dark complexion.

Either way, Moses did not marry someone forbidden.
#32
(06-11-2013, 05:40 PM)Nachshon Wrote: I'm surpised you challenged this point without showing the verse to back your claims.

The verse you meant was:

Deut 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:

These verses refer to the masculine form of the nations in question, so please don't bring up Ruth. I've shown you the evidence in another thread already.

Exodus 2:15-16 says the folks were in the land of Midian and Jethro was a Priest of Midian.

Numbers 12:1 says Zipporah was a Cushite. In Hebrew the root for cushite is " כּוּשׁ", which can mean dark complexion.

Either way, Moses did not marry someone forbidden.

Yes Moabite is what I meant, and female or masculine does not make a difference and so yes, I will please mention Ruth, because in Ezra they put away their strange wives.

"In those days also saw I Jews that had married wives of Ashdod, of Ammon, and of Moab:

And their children spake half in the speech of Ashdod, and could not speak in the Jews' language, but according to the language of each people.

And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, You shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves.

Shall we then hearken to you to do all this great evil, to transgress against our God in marrying strange wives?"

Nice try at subverting the true law out of bias, but it doesn't work. You're just plain wrong.

Nehemiah 13:23-27
#33
(06-15-2013, 09:14 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(06-11-2013, 05:40 PM)Nachshon Wrote: I'm surpised you challenged this point without showing the verse to back your claims.

The verse you meant was:

Deut 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:

These verses refer to the masculine form of the nations in question, so please don't bring up Ruth. I've shown you the evidence in another thread already.

Exodus 2:15-16 says the folks were in the land of Midian and Jethro was a Priest of Midian.

Numbers 12:1 says Zipporah was a Cushite. In Hebrew the root for cushite is " כּוּשׁ", which can mean dark complexion.

Either way, Moses did not marry someone forbidden.

Yes Moabite is what I meant, and female or masculine does not make a difference and so yes, I will please mention Ruth, because in Ezra they put away their strange wives.

"In those days also saw I Jews that had married wives of Ashdod, of Ammon, and of Moab:

And their children spake half in the speech of Ashdod, and could not speak in the Jews' language, but according to the language of each people.

And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, You shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves.

Shall we then hearken to you to do all this great evil, to transgress against our God in marrying strange wives?"

Nice try at subverting the true law out of bias, but it doesn't work. You're just plain wrong.

Nehemiah 13:23-27
Ok, so you conceded that Moses married no one forbidden.

Since you don't understand Hebrew, I don't really fault you for not knowing any better, especially since you were raised as a Christian, I believe. But, the Hebrew and Oral Torah does point to a different reality which you don't want to acccept.

Are you saying then that anyone with a non-Israelite mother/non-Jewish mother is not Jewish then based on the verses above? Can you please explain how King David is a Jew/Israelite and part of the tribe of Judah considering Ruth was a Moabitess, and in light of the verses you identified in Nehemiah 13:23-27 above?
#34
(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Ok, so you conceded that Moses married no one forbidden.

Baloney, he married an Ethiopian. You don't understand Deuteronomy 7 if you think you can marry Ethiopians.

(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Since you don't understand Hebrew, I don't really fault you for not knowing any better, especially since you were raised as a Christian, I believe. But, the Hebrew and Oral Torah does point to a different reality which you don't want to acccept.

Only the oral Torah. Certainly nothing in the entire Tanakh would be on your side.

(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Are you saying then that anyone with a non-Israelite mother/non-Jewish mother is not Jewish then based on the verses above?

You ask a confused question. Jewish does not exist. All you have is Israelite and those gentiles that believe in Elohim along with them. As well as atheist Israelites or Gentiles. So, I'm saying without a Israelite mother and Israelite dad, you're half Israelite. Obviously.

Judaism and you are full of contradictions though. When compared with reading Deuteronomy 7, it would speak against marrying Moabites. Nehemiah disproves your feminine forms of grammar you purport to understand so well. It doesn't fly when reading Nehemiah. Ruth is a Moabite and Moabite woman are written in Nehemiah as being prohibited from marrying and being married to.

(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Can you please explain how King David is a Jew/Israelite and part of the tribe of Judah considering Ruth was a Moabitess, and in light of the verses you identified in Nehemiah 13:23-27 above?

Because it is on his Dads side! Judaism teaches you need a Jewish momma to be "Jewish". King David doesn't have Israelite heritage on his Mothers side! AskMoses and their sect, they teach contradictions.
#35
(06-18-2013, 12:38 AM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Ok, so you conceded that Moses married no one forbidden.
Baloney, he married an Ethiopian. You don't understand Deuteronomy 7 if you think you can marry Ethiopians.
Deut 7:1, which nations are called out by name? Why doesn't the Torah call out Moses sin for intermarriage as is done in Ezra Chapters 9 and 10, or in Neh?

(06-18-2013, 12:38 AM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Are you saying then that anyone with a non-Israelite mother/non-Jewish mother is not Jewish then based on the verses above?
You ask a confused question. Jewish does not exist. All you have is Israelite and those gentiles that believe in Elohim along with them. As well as atheist Israelites or Gentiles. So, I'm saying without a Israelite mother and Israelite dad, you're half Israelite. Obviously.
Then why are people of mixed marriages (half Israelites?), sent away in Ezra Chapters 9 and 10, and Neh 13:23-27, if they are eligible to stay?

(06-18-2013, 12:38 AM)MessianicJew Wrote: Judaism and you are full of contradictions though. When compared with reading Deuteronomy 7, it would speak against marrying Moabites. Nehemiah disproves your feminine forms of grammar you purport to understand so well. It doesn't fly when reading Nehemiah. Ruth is a Moabite and Moabite woman are written in Nehemiah as being prohibited from marrying and being married to.
Deut 7 doesn't mention Moabites. Neh 13:23-27 mentions people who follow foreign gods that do not follow Hashem. That's the key.

(06-18-2013, 12:38 AM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Can you please explain how King David is a Jew/Israelite and part of the tribe of Judah considering Ruth was a Moabitess, and in light of the verses you identified in Nehemiah 13:23-27 above?
Because it is on his Dads side! Judaism teaches you need a Jewish momma to be "Jewish". King David doesn't have Israelite heritage on his Mothers side! AskMoses and their sect, they teach contradictions.
Neh 13:23-27 and Ezra 9:12 says these people of mixed marriages were sent away. Why wasn't David's children and his wives, as well as Moses children and his wife?
#36
(06-18-2013, 05:46 PM)Nachshon Wrote: [quote='MessianicJew' pid='87211' dateline='1371541102']
Deut 7:1, which nations are called out by name? Why doesn't the Torah call out Moses sin for intermarriage as is done in Ezra Chapters 9 and 10, or in Neh?

1: the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites
2: Moses was a the greatest Prophet, would you go marry a prostitute like Hosea did? Of course not, Prophets have status, privilege and are obviously exempt.
3: And for the Midian thing, read Numbers 25.

(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Then why are people of mixed marriages (half Israelites?), sent away in Ezra Chapters 9 and 10, and Neh 13:23-27, if they are eligible to stay?

I don't think I said they were eligible to stay.

(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Deut 7 doesn't mention Moabites. Neh 13:23-27 mentions people who follow foreign gods that do not follow Hashem. That's the key.

1 Kings 11:1 names Moabite among the strange women. And Ruth was a Moabite.

(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Neh 13:23-27 and Ezra 9:12 says these people of mixed marriages were sent away. Why wasn't David's children and his wives, as well as Moses children and his wife?

Prophets and Kings are exempt. Judaism is not.
#37
(06-21-2013, 07:23 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(06-18-2013, 05:46 PM)Nachshon Wrote: [quote='MessianicJew' pid='87211' dateline='1371541102']
Deut 7:1, which nations are called out by name? Why doesn't the Torah call out Moses sin for intermarriage as is done in Ezra Chapters 9 and 10, or in Neh?
1: the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites
2: Moses was a the greatest Prophet, would you go marry a prostitute like Hosea did? Of course not, Prophets have status, privilege and are obviously exempt.
3: And for the Midian thing, read Numbers 25.
1. agreed
2. One is only exempt if Hashem clearly says so. Based on Deut 7:1, Moses did no wrong in marrying an Ethiopian/Midianite.
3. Yes, so what does this have to do with Moses, his wife, and his father-in-law?

(06-21-2013, 07:33 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Then why are people of mixed marriages (half Israelites?), sent away in Ezra Chapters 9 and 10, and Neh 13:23-27, if they are eligible to stay?
I don't think I said they were eligible to stay.
So, why weren't they sent away?

(06-21-2013, 07:33 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Deut 7 doesn't mention Moabites. Neh 13:23-27 mentions people who follow foreign gods that do not follow Hashem. That's the key.
1 Kings 11:1 names Moabite among the strange women. And Ruth was a Moabite.
Did Ruth follow a strange god?

(06-21-2013, 07:33 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Neh 13:23-27 and Ezra 9:12 says these people of mixed marriages were sent away. Why wasn't David's children and his wives, as well as Moses children and his wife?
Prophets and Kings are exempt. Judaism is not.
What is your source for this conclusion?
#38
(06-23-2013, 10:32 PM)Nachshon Wrote: So, why weren't they sent away?

Good question, because it isn't said they converted either.

(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Did Ruth follow a strange god?

No, and if that made Ruth a Jew, then she should have been called one. And she isn't called a Jew, she's called a Moabite, she is distinguished as a Moabite all throughout Ruth.

(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: What is your source for this conclusion?

Hosea marrying Gomer. Yet the rest of Israel who are not Prophets, can't marry prostitutes and whores.
#39
(06-25-2013, 02:28 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(06-23-2013, 10:32 PM)Nachshon Wrote: So, why weren't they sent away?
Good question, because it isn't said they converted either.
You're right, nothing says she converted. But, since she is the subject of Levirate marriage, what does that say?

(06-25-2013, 02:28 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Did Ruth follow a strange god?
No, and if that made Ruth a Jew, then she should have been called one. And she isn't called a Jew, she's called a Moabite, she is distinguished as a Moabite all throughout Ruth.
And she is allowed to marry into Israel through levirate marriage, only allowed for someone part of Israel. Deut 25:5-12.

(06-25-2013, 02:28 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: What is your source for this conclusion?
Hosea marrying Gomer. Yet the rest of Israel who are not Prophets, can't marry prostitutes and whores.
Lev 21:7 only applies to priests. No one can commit adultery Lev 20:10, so Hosea didn't marry an adultress.

I answered this before for you. Of course no one wants to marry someone of ill repute, but people do change.
#40
(06-27-2013, 05:43 PM)Nachshon Wrote: You're right, nothing says she converted. But, since she is the subject of Levirate marriage, what does that say?

Show me a law for conversion? All you have to do at that time was acknowledge the Elohim of Israel as your Elohim. She did that, but, it didn't change her Moabite heritage to being called a Jew.

(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: And she is allowed to marry into Israel through levirate marriage, only allowed for someone part of Israel. Deut 25:5-12.

That says nothing about a non-Israelite woman.

(06-16-2013, 02:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Lev 21:7 only applies to priests. No one can commit adultery Lev 20:10, so Hosea didn't marry an adultress.

False, your logic has screwed up your brain. Elohim told him to take a "whore". Now you're trying to make stuff up using some faulty logical thought process that contradicts what Elohim told Hosea. If he didn't marry a whore, then he didn't follow the command by Elohim to take a whore. Hosea did indeed marry a whore.

Leviticus 21:7 only applies to priests? Something is wrong with your thinking.

Deuteronomy 23:17
There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.


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