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Isaiah 53 Is Israel This Servant?
#11
Yochanan5730 Wrote:Shalom,

Yes, Yis'rael is this Servant!

There are four "Servant Songs" in Y'sha'yahu/Isaiah. in one of them (49:1-6) it says, "You are My Servant, O Yis'rael, in whom I will be glorified" (49:3)

The Rabbis have used this particular verse in the Songs to point out that Yis'rael, the People, are the Servant of these songs....


Wow. So, Yis'rael is Y'shua while Adom Yis'rael/"Yis'rael" is Eretz-Yis'rael? By the way, the only Rabbi is Y'shua (Mattityahu 23:8-10).
#12
Dr. Michael Brown talks about this issue of the suffering servant (Israel vs. Messiah) in his EXCELLENT talk at USC: http://www.realmessiah.org.  Everyone should check this out to consider yourself educated on what the evidence for the Messianic position really is!

Yes, there is a sense in which Yeshua identifies with Israel and they with he.  Yes the suffering servant in some of the Isaiah passages are clearly the nation of Israel, but here in chapter 53 it can only be the righteous messiah for gramatical and historical reasons already stated.

Here's another example of the Messiah (Son of God - 2Sam 7:14, Isaiah 7:14, 9:6, Ps 2:7, Prov 30:4) being identified with Israel in the exodus:

Son as Israel
---------------
Hosea 11:1: When Israel was a child, I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son.

Exd 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn.

Num 23:22  God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.

Son as Messiah
---------------
Hosea 11:1: When Israel was a child, I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son.
Also quoted in Matthew 2:15: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Num 24:8  God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce [them] through with his arrows.

Gen 49:8  Judah, thou [art he] whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand [shall be] in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
Gen 49:9  Judah [is] a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
Gen 49:10  The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [shall] the gathering of the people [be].


p.s.  Note the Messianic parallels of Deu 32-33, Numbers 23-24, and Genesis 49.  Comparing these passages is an excellent study!

p.s.  Another great talk on how the Messianic faith is not a new religion, but rather the faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob can be found here:
http://www.richlandcreek.com/studies/RCMF-06-01-07.m3u
#13
Amen,

I know I can learn from those equipped with the Spirit of Christ.

Shalom
#14
Hi, I'm new here.

I wonder if anyone would care to explain what comparison is being drawn here. This is Isaiah 52 from the JPS version:

13 ¶  Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.
14  According as many were appalled at thee—so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men—
15  So shall he startle many nations, kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them shall they see, and that which they had not heard shall they perceive.

Who is "thee" in verse 14?
What is meant by "according as" in verse 14?
In verse 15, does "so shall" refer to "as many as were appalled at thee?"

Is this saying:

"After the pattern of the abasement of x [he was so disfigured], in the same fashion, he will shock a large number of countries"

?

Or might it be saying that

"Just as shocking as the horrific disfigurement you endured will be the shock of his exaltation."

?

Thanks,

Bill Ross
#15
When you realize your capabilities, your environment, your opportunities, your circumstances and those influenced by you and your actions, there is a word called grace. Such as from natural disasters, plagues, std's, and the occasional visit from your mother-in-law if you have one.

Investigate the Historical Jesus! Then, the "least" of these the Messiah spoke of. Barabas fits in the picture too. Y'shua literally died for a murderer according to scripture. No DNA?
#16
norisk Wrote:Who is "thee" in verse 14?
What is meant by "according as" in verse 14?
In verse 15, does "so shall" refer to "as many as were appalled at thee?"

Is this saying:

"After the pattern of the abasement of x [he was so disfigured], in the same fashion, he will shock a large number of countries"

?

Or might it be saying that

"Just as shocking as the horrific disfigurement you endured will be the shock of his exaltation."
Hi norisk - sorry for the delayed reponse,

I think the thee in 52:14 is Israel.  (You're wise to ask.  You should pay very careful attention to the pronouns in Isaiah 52-53.)  I think God is saying that like many were astonished by Israel, even more so Yeshua - his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men.  As I stated in an earlier post, in many ways Yeshua identifies with Israel, e.g. in her suffering.

That's pretty much what the NASB says:

Isa 52:14   Just as many were astonished at you, {My people,} So His appearance was marred more than any man And His form more than the sons of men.  
Isa 52:15   Thus He will sprinkle many nations, Kings will shut their mouths on account of Him; For what had not been told them they will see, And what they had not heard they will understand.  

The NIV translators seems to think the thee is Jesus though.  Check out: http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/v...ion=KJV#14

In 52:15, I think "so shall" means, that by way of shedding his blood, Yeshua will sprinkle many nations (by acting as a sin offering).  Remember the references in the Torah to the sacrificed animal's blood being sprinkled on the altar?   And even though Israel never kept her mandate to bless the nations, the Messiah does.
[part2 to come]
#17
[part 2]
norisk,

As to to the term "shock".  I think you're reading too much into the way it was used.  The point of the 52:15 is that: by way of Yeshua's atoning death, atonment is made available to all who would receive it.  Initially the nations (Gentiles) knew nothing of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and were w/o hope (Ephesians 2:11-13), but when the Messiah was rejected by Israel (as Joseph was rejected by his brothers), he was shared with the nations instead - at least for now (Isaiah 49, Romans 11).  Note again the correlation between the life of Yeshua and the life of Joseph, his brothers, and the Gentile Egyptians who embraced him.  They made Joseph 2nd in command of the entire planet (only below their Pharoah (God)), he married a Gentile bride (NT church), and became the savior of the world - there was salvation in no other.  And only later when he took off his Gentile garb did his brothers recognize and embrace him (see Zechariah 12:10).  Zecharaiah 12:10, and the actual confession of Isaiah 52-53 are yet future.  Note Isaiah 52-53 is a confession by Israel that has yet to be made!  I also believe the true fullfilment of the new covenenant predicted in Jeremiah 31, Ezekial 34, etc. is also yet future - we Gentiles have been generously grafted in in advance (so God could bless the nations and also to make Israel jealous and turn back to Him), but the new covenant was not promised to the natioins, but to Israel.  And God keeps his promises - Hallelujah!  Read Romans 11.

Blessings in Messiah!
#18
>>I think the thee in 52:14 is Israel.

Thanks, ThirdDay, for your response.

So would you say (assuming you read Hebrew) that the prepositions suggest this kind of reading?

14  [In the same way] As many were astonied at thee [Israel, in the same way] his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
15  So [in the same way] shall he [my servant] sprinkle [startle, amaze] many [of the gentile] nations; the kings [among the gentile nations] shall shut their mouths [in awe] at him: for that which had not been told them shall they [the gentile kings] see; and that which they [the gentile kings] had not heard shall they consider.

And what about the next 3 verses?

1 ¶  Who hath given credence to that which we heard? And the arm of Jehovah, On whom hath it been revealed?
2  Yea, he [my servant] cometh up as a tender plant before Him [the incredulous gentile king], And as a root out of a dry land, He [the servant] hath no form, nor honour, when we observe him [the servant], Nor appearance, when we [Isaiah and Israel] desire him.
3  He [the servant] is despised, and left of men, A man of pains, and acquainted with sickness, And as one hiding the face from us, He is despised, and we esteemed him not.

Does that sound right?
#19
norisk, my Hebrew knowledge is pretty elementary - I'm a Hebrew novice.  I rely on interlinears, concordances, etc as well as the writings of Hebrew scholars.  The book "The Servant of Jehovah" by David Baron is a very good book on this chapter.  http://www.amazon.com/Servant-Jehovah-Su..._b_title_1.  Dr. Baron was an excellent Hebrew scholar and Jewish Messianic believer.  

52:15.  Both in the Hebrew and NT scriptures, "nations" (nearly if not always) implies Gentiles, while "tribes" implies Israel.  And in 52:15, I'd say "them" and "they" refers to the Gentiles - not just the Gentile kings.

In 53:1, I'd say "our report" is the report intended for Israel.  But Israel was unable to hear the report because of their spiritual deafness and blindness - John 12:37-40, Isaiah 6.  So, I think a valid translation would be "Who has believed the (God's) message that was intended for us?  And to whom has the arm of the Lord (Messiah) been revealed?  (Answer: the nations (other sheep) - John 10:16).
[part 2 to come]
#20
[continued]

53:2.  I'd translate: For He (Messiah) shall grow up before Him (God) as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground (from a barren stump - Job 14:7, Isaiah 10:34-11:1 - note how chapter 10 talks about Israel being chopped down, also see Isaiah 7:14 for the supernatural birth, in ways like the supernatural birth of Isaac and Jacob).  He has no attractiveness (not tall and handsome like Saul) and when we (Israel) see him (Messiah) there is no beauty that we should desire him (Messiah).

Jesus isn't handsome and doesn't initially come as a conquering king, so Israel isn't attracted.  Rather they despise him (Psalms 22:6, 88:8).  See Isaiah 6:9-13.

Blessings in Messiah!


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