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Isaiah 53 Is Israel This Servant?
#21
No offense, Third, but if you don't read Hebrew then you and I are both in the same boat of merely speculating on the prepositions. However, I think that accurate interpretation begins with accurate translation, and I think as presented in the English texts, the text has too many ambiguities to be reliably interpreted.
I am hoping a Hebrew scholar might catch this discussion and clarify some of these points.

Bill Ross
#22
Or you could read the works of Hebrew scholars as I suggested :lol:.

Blessings in Messiah!
#23
Both Jezua and Israel are His servant.

This ambiquity seems on purpose,

cause Israel indeed can be seen as the nation entity of His servant,

like Jezua is the personal Immanuel, G'd with us, through jewery.




As forseen in the bible, Jezus has been ignored, despiced and even stabbed by his own people,
the jews are ignored, despiced and stabbed by (their own) gentiles.


The jews are despiced by the others of humanity

like Jezus has been despiced by his own jewish brothers.


Read Zecherariah 13
#24
Question;

Did jc have a choice to be crucified? Could he have said no?

The reason I ask is because it says;

Isaiah 53:10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.


How could jc have a choice? Why is the word "if" used there if this is a so called prophecy as to what will happen to jc. Shouldn't it read "when" not "if"??

But the answer is clear in the next couple of words.
"he shall see children".

It is clear to me that jc's soul DID NOT make itself restitution, because if it did, he clearly would have had "zera", physical children as the word is used everywhere else in Tanach. No, not spiritual children, there is another Hebrew word for that.

I rest my case.
#25
It must be very important to you to spend this much time twisting Isaiah 53. Israel is not in the grave. Neither is the Son of David, or the seed of Abraham.

Remember in Daniel, one like unto the Son of Man? Those  guys in that furnace, maybe they were apparitions. Jesus was sent for the reason.
What do you think His reason was? seriously Smile

The arguments against Y'shua being Messiah compare equally with arguments against Moses saying by the Holy Spirit of G_d, I am that I am. Or Isaiah saying, "I am the Lord."

I have a question for you search, If you were eyewitness to G_d in the flesh, a man such as Jesus Christ, proclaiming himself to be the Messiah,
the Son of G-d, and purposefully, deliberately letting you know He was
a ransom for Israel and would be crucified  and buried, and raise Himself up again after 3 days, and no one else gave a hoot, wouldn't you still make some mental note, or write it down, or tell a scribe or doctor to write it down, even if it went beyond your own ability to comprehend? Would you think Jesus crazy, or so want deliverance that you at least paid attention long enough to hear Him out, and actually see His reason to be Israel's Messiah fulfilled?

You seem like one who is concerned about what they read and choose to believe.

Shalom.
#26
Cor517,

It seems funny that you didn't answer my question but in fact accuse me of "twisting" the verse which I was only repeating. Please explain how I "twisted" the verse?

Then you say it must be very important to me to spend this much time on Isaiah 53?  Looks to me like that was my first post. How much time have youspent on it?


To answer you question about "seeing" a messiah, I would have to answer like this;

It isn't about "seeing" anyone. It is about seeing what is happening in the world at the time. Anyone (and many have) can claim to be a or the messiah.

When;
The Third Temple is built (Ezekiel 37:26-27),
The Jewish people return from exile (Isaiah 11:12),
Everyone will observe G-d's commandments (Ezekeil 37:24)
Everyone shall know and serve ONE G-d (Isaiah 66:23)
There will be world peace (Micah 4:3)

There are many others I have left out.

So that is when I will recognize that meesiah has come, no matter who it is. I will be able to look out my window or turn on the news and SEE it.

Can you explain to me how jc has fullfilled even one of the above during his life IN THE FLESH (as you call it)? Or did jc just fullfill 300 prophecies that had nothing to do with what will happen when the messiah does arrive?


Now with that said, I will never worship a messiah. For a messiah is NOT G-d. G-d has no form. So I will never "see" G-d in the flesh for G-d told us so Himself.

G-d tells us how to be "delivered" from our sins. All you have to do is read the Tanach. Jews were doing it for hundreds and hundreds of years before jc, and have been doing it for thousands of years after jc.


Correction;

Moses and Isaiah NEVER said they were G-d. As a matter of fact, even through ALL of the miracles, they never patted themselves on the back. They ALWAYS thanked Hashem. So I don't understand your reasoning.





#27
searchinmyroots Wrote:Question;

Did jc have a choice to be crucified? Could he have said no?

The reason I ask is because it says;

Isaiah 53:10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.


How could jc have a choice? Why is the word "if" used there if this is a so called prophecy as to what will happen to jc. Shouldn't it read "when" not "if"??

But the answer is clear in the next couple of words.
"he shall see children".

It is clear to me that jc's soul DID NOT make itself restitution, because if it did, he clearly would have had "zera", physical children as the word is used everywhere else in Tanach. No, not spiritual children, there is another Hebrew word for that.

I rest my case.


First of all, Y'shua did have a choice and made restitution, but for those whom Y'shua was crushed. Second, Y'shua saw children, even if not physical ones of "his own"; and how can I trust your "Hebrew"?
#28
searchinmyroots Wrote:Moses and Isaiah NEVER said they were G-d. As a matter of fact, even through ALL of the miracles, they never patted themselves on the back. They ALWAYS thanked Hashem. So I don't understand your reasoning.
So who is the Immanuel, G'd with us?

And who is the one who was born out of the young woman (virgin)?

Who is His companion?


Who is the one that would not be recognized and even be stabbed by his own brothers?


Who is the one in Jeremiah 51 who would not leave Israel in widowship? Some translations mentions.

5
For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel.
#29
Goy,

Show me where in your gt that it says jc had a choice. It seems as if he told his disciples his destiny, not a choice he made.


How can you trust my "Hebrew"?

First, it is not "my Hebrew", it is G-d's Holy Tongue.

Second-Maybe because that is the actual language the bible you quote from is written in?


Zera= physical children

The next words "yaarich yamim" translate as a verb which means "lenghten his days". It only applies to physical life, not spiritual.

I am just stating the facts.
#30
Hello searchinmyroots,

Yeshua could have said no, but being in perfect concert with the eternal plan of God, he never would have.

Yeshua (Jesus) fulfilled the Messianic prophecies regarding his role as suffering servant and atonement of sins during his initial visit.  But because he was rejected by his people (but embraced by the Gentiles - like Joseph - also read Isaiah 49) the fulfillment of the other prophecies like the ones you mentioned were postponed - they are yet future.  You see, the Messiah was not just to come and stomp the goyim so that Israel can enjoy peace on earth, rather Messiah was to come to fix the relationship problem we ALL have with God.  Our real problem is not that others around us are evil, it's that we ourselves are evil!  Our sin separates us from our holy and righteous God.  The prophet Isaiah (64:6) said even our "righteous" deeds are like filthy rags (term used for a woman's rag for her monthly cycle) in the presence of our holy God.  We all need atonement (Lev 16-17), but Moses said there is NO forgivenss of sins w/o the shedding of blood (Lev 17:11).  The Messiah provides that perfect and lasting atonement so that we can have TRUE shalom with our Creator forever.  Only after we have shalom with our Creator can true lasting shalom be realized on earth.  Yeshua made our asham (sin) offering on Passover in 30AD, God showed he approved of the offering by rising Yeshua from the dead on First Fruits, and as Yeshua predicted, the temple was destroyed exactly 40 years later to make clear that the the sacrifices of man our insufficient - that we must submit to Messiah (kiss the son - Psalms 2) for redemption/salvation.  But, it's up to us to accept submit to and accept that truth.  Later when Messiah returns, those who have accepted the submitted to the righeousness that only comes from God will have eternal shalom, and those who will not will rise up to experience eternal contempt as the prophet Daniel said in chapter 12.  Also see Job 19:25-29.

Blessings in Messiah!

p.s.  I'd highly recommended the book Messianic Christology by Arnold Fruchtenbaum


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