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Isaiah 53 Is Israel This Servant?
#31
Can someone explain to me how this verse fits jc?

Isaiah 53:
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty;


If jc is G-d, why would G-d "divide him a portion among the great"?

Is that not claiming jc only to be "among the great"? How could G-d in the flesh (as you believe) be "among the great"? HE is the Almighty and there is no other greater, don't you agree?

If jc is the servant, why would he "divide the spoil with the mighty"?

The Hebrew word used translated as "spoil" is shalal. It means booty captured in warfare. When did jc divide the spoils collected by the enemy in warfare and for what purpose does it serve to reward G-d in the flesh (as you beleive)?  G-d doesn't need anything. HE is the creator. What is HE going to do with riches captured during war?


Does this make any sense?
#32
jHenosch said;

"So who is the Immanuel, G'd with us?

And who is the one who was born out of the young woman (virgin)?"

Most Hebrew names have a meaning. Should we say that King Hezekiah is "The Mighty G-d'? That's what his name translates to.

Why would G-d provide a sign to King Ahaz that he would never live to see? Does that make any sense to you? The prophecy was fufilled when the two kings that attacked him were slain.

If Immanuel is jc and Isaiah 7 says "she will call him Immanuel", why oh why doesn't Mary name him Immanuel? Now if that happened, then you might have a liitle more to work with.  
#33
Thirdday (actually there were only two),


There are too many issues for me to address in one post and I'm sure they have been already addressed over and over again.

So I'll just point out a few.

The Hebrew bible NEVER says that a messiah will complete his mission the second time. It is totally unbiblical.

Isaiah 64:6

If you read the entire chapter in content (which you must do with all of your "proof texts"), you will see that Isaiah is talking about the people of that time. He in no way, shape of form says all of mankind is like filthy rags.


Leviticus 17:11

Again, if you actually read all of the chapter you will find that Moses is talking about the "eating" of blood.
Read the previous verse

10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among them, that eateth any manner of blood, I will set My face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

and the one after it;

12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel: No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.


Moses NEVER said "NO forgivenss of sins w/o the shedding of blood". Can you show me that verse?

To help you, I will show you several verse where one can atone for his sins without blood! None of the following verse claim the need for blood and Hashem forgave them for their sins!

Leviticus 5:

11 But if his means suffice not for two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he shall bring his offering for that wherein he hath sinned, the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin-offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon; for it is a sin-offering.

Proverbs 16:
6 By mercy and truth iniquity is expiated; and by the fear of HaShem men depart from evil.


Hosea 14:
2 Return, O Israel, unto HaShem thy G-d; for thou hast stumbled in thine iniquity.

3 Take with you words, and return unto HaShem; say unto Him: 'Forgive all iniquity, and accept that which is good; so will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips.

Good deeds instead of Blood of Bullocks!

Numbers 31:
50 And we have brought HaShem'S offering, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, armlets, and bracelets, signet-rings, ear-rings, and girdles, to make atonement for our souls before HaShem.'

Jeremiah 36:
3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way, and I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.'

I have a few more if you'd like.


I'm sorry, but G-d has said something totally different than what you believe.
G-d said it is an abomination to have a human sacrifice.
G-d said every man shall be responsible for his own sin.

Thanks for your insight, but I can only go by what G-d says.




#34
searchinmyroots Wrote:Can someone explain to me how this verse fits jc?

Isaiah 53:
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty;
If jc is G-d, why would G-d "divide him a portion among the great"?
If jc is the servant, why would he "divide the spoil with the mighty"?

The question should be does the dividing of the portion fit the Tanakh and individuals in Israel's history?

Lets look at Abraham and his brief experience with Melchizedek even before Israel became a nation.

QUESTION: Where did Abraham's tithe come from?

Heb 7:1-2 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;  (2)  To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

Melchizedek represents Jesus Christ and Abraham shared the spoil with Melchizedek. Why? Because it was the L-rd that gave Abraham the victory!

Rev 3:21-22 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.  (22)  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Messiah gives victory and rest to His people... inside out...

searchinmyroots Wrote:The Hebrew word used translated as "spoil" is shalal. It means booty captured in warfare. When did jc divide the spoils collected by the enemy in warfare and for what purpose does it serve to reward G-d in the flesh (as you beleive)?  G-d doesn't need anything. HE is the creator. What is HE going to do with riches captured during war?

Does this make any sense?
If our creator doesn't fight for His people and does not have any desires in this fallen world what do u make of the war history of Israel? Didn't the L-rd fight for us? You must go back to Genesis 3:15 and the war nature of this fallen world but most of all you must get a revelation of G-ds humility and His giving nature.

Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

John 3:16 Wrote:“For God so loved the world that he gave his only and unique Son, so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life, instead of being utterly destroyed.
#35
Prowler,

You cannot answer my question with another question. xtians claim Isaiah 53 is about jc. That is the discussion.


#36
(3) The servant submits to the suffering* heaped upon him submissively offering no resistance. From this standpoint it is clear that one other than the nation yet part of it is the sufferer.

From post #1- A more appropriate wording for this is found in scripture.

Y'shua laid down his life, that He might take it again.

John.10

[17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
[18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

crucifixion*

H1931
äéà    äåּà
hû'  hîy'
hoo, he
The second form is the feminine beyond the Pentateuch; a primitive word, the third person pronoun singular, he (she or it); only expressed when emphatic or without a verb; also (intensively) self, or (especially with the article) the same; sometimes (as demonstrative) this or that; occasionally (instead of copula) as or are: - he, as for her, him (-self), it, the same, she (herself), such, that (. . . it), these, they, this, those, which (is), who.

This post is for the forum,and those concerned. (Tanach, rev 320, Search,  Danny etc. You can take it personal. )  Dwain  F. Hendrick
3/17/08 10:47 p.m. You know where I live.

Shalom.  :lone_ranger:
#37
cor517 Wrote:The report of the many (Isaiah 53), exiled Israel, of the servant bearing
our sin (and consequences of it) by vicarious suffering, (His whole life an offering for sin) and His death the final atonement.

Y'shua, obedient to His Father's will, suffering exile without the camp, righteous, without sin, unjustly accused, falsely and unfairly tried, for the joy set before him, accepting our penalty and punishment for our disobedience, accepting His death that we, (the many) might have life.
Thus providing us the promise of eternal life, a land promised in which to sojourn, and the New Jerusalem, with eternal peace with the Father forever.

Isaiah 49
[6] And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
[7] Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

The grammatical connection is evidenced in Hebrew, as Christ the Son
(He) over his Fathers house as the builder. The nation of Israel as the  the bride, and the joy of those disciples who worshipped Him as their Lord.

In 49 the same connection can be made with servant. (sing.)

‛ebed
eh'-bed
From H5647; a servant: -  X bondage, bondman, [bond-] servant, (man-) servant.

Peace.
#38
searchinmyroots (ref #33),

On the "third day" question, I can take your opinion or the eyewitness accounts of those that were there.

Isaiah 64 is not JUST about the people of Isaiah's time.  See verse 4: "For since the beginning of the world [men] have not heard...".

Unlike the pagans, God does forbid human sacrifice (of our own initiative), yet he asks Abraham to offer Isaac.  Interestingly Abraham says God will provide a lamb, yet he provided a ram.  Was Moses wrong or did he know about the coming atonement that Isaiah knew about in chapter 53?  Did he know his future "seed" would provide atonement?

In Lev 17, Moses talks about not drinking blood and gives a reason WHY - 17:11: "For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul."  Are you saying it's not the blood that makes atonement for souls?  In which of the verses you quote does God say that their sin was taken away by their acts?  None.  Also even the effect of the blood sacrifices were temporary - they had to be repeated regularly.

The Messianic view is that once you truly fear God, recognize your sin, confess and repent of them, and trust (have faith) in God's righteousness and atonement as provided by the asham offering of Yeshua instead of your trusting in your own righteousness, then you will receive the gracious merciful gift of atonement (by grace through faith).  It's a gift we don't deserve!  After this step, you will be given the power to turn from evil and perform acts of righteousness in appreciation and love for God.  This view is consistent with the Scriptures you quoted.  

Man doesn't turn from evil on their own - the New Covenant (Jer 31:31-34, Ezek 34, etc) promises that God will some day give Israel (as a nation as apposed to the remnant (and also some Gentiles - Isaiah 49)which has always individually been given a heart that fears and loves God) a new heart to turn towards him.  Our righteousness is of God, not ourselves (Eph 2:8-9).  Read Ezekiel 36:22-38.  Who is responsible for Israel's righteousness?  "I will..."  "I will..." "I will..."

BTW, what do you think is the new covenant spoken by Jeremiah, etc is?  When will/was it fulfilled?
#39
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. You must yield to the Holy Spirit of the Lord and Obey his instruction. If you do not yield to G-d's Holy Spirit, it will be quenched, and yes my friend that is not G_D's fault. The Holy Spirit never condemns, He convicts.

The point of Isaiah 53 is revealed through the Holy Spirit of G-d. The heart is hardened through the deliberate choice of sin (not doing what G_D in Christ has asked.) The servant suffered for us, because as a man
He chose His Father's will. As the Lord He reigns. Our unrighteousness
choices as men never commends the righteousness of G_D. G-d gives us the grace to turn from our sin by the atonement offered at Calvary.
#40
Cor517,


Isaiah 49 specifically calls Israel the "servant".

3 And He said unto me: 'Thou art My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.'



G-d will be glorifed by Israel.

G-d didn't mention jc or a messiah.


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