Bible Options Bible Study Software
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Persons of the Trinity
#1
Will someone who believes in the doctrine of the Trinity, please define "Persons". And please do not give me names or titles because that does not define what a person is.

I am under the understanding that the Trinity doctrine starts with a Supreme Being (God) who is a Spirit (singular).

How does one Spirit become three "somethings". The Trinity doctrine, from what the word of God says, is a contradiction and paradox.

So, a little explanation of how a single Spirit becomes "three" of whatever would be appreciated. How does that work.
Reply
#2
God is spirit

(12-18-2012, 07:45 PM)HonestAbe Wrote: Will someone who believes in the doctrine of the Trinity, please define "Persons". And please do not give me names or titles because that does not define what a person is.

I am under the understanding that the Trinity doctrine starts with a Supreme Being (God) who is a Spirit (singular).

How does one Spirit become three "somethings". The Trinity doctrine, from what the word of God says, is a contradiction and paradox.

So, a little explanation of how a single Spirit becomes "three" of whatever would be appreciated. How does that work.
John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
John 4:24 πνευμα ο θεος ~ a literal translation is ~ spirit (the) god ~ rearranged in proper English syntax ~ God [is] spirit.
In the Greek ‘spirit’ is in the nominative case singular indicating that from a qualitative point of view God is a singular spirit ~ it could be suggested that this spirit is undivided and a single ‘entity’ in its essential quality.
In the Greek ‘(the) God’ is in the nominative case singular, the construct establishes the ‘identity’ (person) of (the) God and is probably also is indicative of being the name of the ‘identity’ (person) ~ it could be suggested that this God is undivided and a single ‘entity’ in its essential quality of being spirit.

In the unmoderated forum I have a thread titled John 1:1-2 ~ in this thread I explain the significance of the Greek wording and syntax establishing the existence of an ‘identity’ (person) named ‘the Word’ and another ‘identity’ (‘entity’) referred to as ‘(the) God’ ~ and finally it is established that the ‘identity’ (person) named ‘the Word’ possesses all the qualitative attributes of ‘God’ while at the same time not being ‘(the) God’.
Reply
#3
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, so that He may abide with you forever,
John 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.

In these verses we find ‘the Son’ speaking and saying He will ask ‘the Father’ to send yet ‘another Helper’ to abide with and eventually be in the Disciples. This ‘another Helper’ is then ‘identified’ as ‘the Spirit’ ~ bringing us to three ‘identities’ (persons) being spoken of in these verses. At every detailed account of the baptism of Iesus we find ‘the Father’ speaking from out of heaven, ‘the Spirit’ descending as a dove and ‘the Son’ being baptized ~ once again three ‘identities’ (persons) ~ in the Great Commission of Matthew 28 we find the Disciples being charged to baptize new disciples in the name (singular) of ‘the Father’ and ‘the Son’ and ‘the Holy Spirit’ ~ once again three ‘identities’ (persons).

The word ‘trinity’ does not appear in the NT ~ BUT ~ the idea of there being three ‘identities’ (persons) within the ONE GOD is most definitely present ~ I do not ‘believe’ IN the Trinity ~ I do believe that these three ‘identities’ (persons) are the One True God.

In the end I am borrowing English words to try to explain the conceptual ideas of the Greek words which in turn are attempting to convey a description of the indescribable ~ if I were to talk about the Father in heaven as being God, I don’t think I would get much opposition ~ likewise if I were to talk about the Spirit of God as being God, I don’t think I would get much opposition ~ sooo why is it if I were to talk about the Son of God as being God, I would get a great deal of opposition? After all, in the previous example, we already have two-thirds of the Godhead being readily acknowledged as being God ~ why the hesitation to accept the remaining third?
Reply
#4
It seems to me that many people have difficulty accepting the Trinity because they cannot believe that three Persons can be one Godhead -- separate and yet one.

The basic problem is that we are inside of creation, as creatures, while God is outside of it. The triune God is not part of creation, nor bound by its laws of space, matter and time, any more than an artist is part of the painting he creates. The artist has abilities, choices, dimensions and much more than the painting could never "understand."

It is impossible for created mortals to understand how three can be one, because such a thing is not possible within creation.

If the Trinity were easy to understand and explain, I would dismiss it as a manmade fable. If Jesus and His disciples had been manufacturing a new religion with the hope of attracting zillions of followers, they would have made it one that people could readily understand. What they did instead was tell the truth. Read any Greek or Roman myth, and you can see that they are plausible in a way -- people could accept that Athena sprang fully formed from Zeus's head, because they recognized all of the factors involved -- one goddess, one god, one head, etc.

But three Persons in one Godhead? It is beyond our understanding, as one would expect of a truly "supernatural" existence. The unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is understandable only so far as we can accept it on faith and through the witness of the Bible.

Two things are clear concerning this matter: We see through a glass darkly; and without faith, it is impossible to please God.
Reply
#5
(04-03-2013, 01:43 PM)MAlan Wrote: It seems to me that many people have difficulty accepting the Trinity because they cannot believe that three Persons can be one Godhead -- separate and yet one.

The basic problem is that we are inside of creation, as creatures, while God is outside of it. The triune God is not part of creation, nor bound by its laws of space, matter and time, any more than an artist is part of the painting he creates. The artist has abilities, choices, dimensions and much more than the painting could never "understand."

It is impossible for created mortals to understand how three can be one, because such a thing is not possible within creation.

If the Trinity were easy to understand and explain, I would dismiss it as a manmade fable. If Jesus and His disciples had been manufacturing a new religion with the hope of attracting zillions of followers, they would have made it one that people could readily understand. What they did instead was tell the truth. Read any Greek or Roman myth, and you can see that they are plausible in a way -- people could accept that Athena sprang fully formed from Zeus's head, because they recognized all of the factors involved -- one goddess, one god, one head, etc.

But three Persons in one Godhead? It is beyond our understanding, as one would expect of a truly "supernatural" existence. The unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is understandable only so far as we can accept it on faith and through the witness of the Bible.

Two things are clear concerning this matter: We see through a glass darkly; and without faith, it is impossible to please God.

And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
~1 John 5:8~

What do you make of the above? Would you call Jesus both my God and my Lord like Apostle Thomas or the Son of the true living God like Apostle Peter?
Reply
#6
Jesus is God and the Son of God.

As a mortal human inside creation, I don’t understand how the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit can be three and yet one. In fact, if I could understand, I’d say that this is a man-made religion. I can’t understand how the three Persons of the Trinity are one; but then, They are outside of creation, while I am inside it.

The clay understands nothing about the potter. The painting has no way to comprehend the life of the artist.

If Jesus’ disciples had wanted to start a successful new religion, they’d have done better to develop a cosmology that people could understand – along the lines of the human-like deities of Greece, Rome or Egypt. Instead, they proclaimed a triune Godhead Who has no counterpart, no frame of reference, inside creation. It seems quite logical that we mortals don’t, and can’t, understand the tri-unity of God, since there is nothing truly like it in nature.

If we were to say that Jesus is only the Son of God, not God, we would be saying that He has some degree of divine nature and supernatural power. We would be saying that He is above mortals, but not quite God. I’d say that would make Him a kind of demigod, a lesser deity – and that would make our faith polytheistic. No, our faith proclaims that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10).

I believe Jesus is God and the Son of God because that is clearly what the writers of the New Testament proclaim, and I believe they were inspired to do so by the Holy Spirit.

Terms that identify and describe God in the Old Testament are used for Jesus in the New. For example:

God is the Creator – Isaiah 40:28. Jesus is the Creator – John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17

God is “I Am” -- Exodus 3:14. Jesus is “I Am” - - John 8:58

God is the Shepherd – Psalm 23:1, Isaiah 40:11. Jesus is the Shepherd: John 10:11, Hebrews 13:20

God is the First and the Last – Isaiah 41:4, 44:6. Jesus is the First and the Last – Rev. 1:17, 2:8, 22:13

God is the Savior -- Isaiah 43:3, 11; 45:21. Jesus is the Savior – John 4:42, I John 4:14

God is the Rock – Deuteronomy 32:4. Jesus is the Rock – I Corinthians 10:4

God is the Light – Psalm 27:1, Isaiah 60:20. Jesus is the Light – Luke 2:32, John 8:12

God is the Judge – Joel 3:12. Jesus is the Judge – II Corinthians 5:10, II Timothy 4:1

In John 8:56-59 and 10:22-39, Jesus’ Jewish listeners clearly understood that He claimed to be God; that is why they accused Him of blasphemy and attempted to stone Him (in accordance with Leviticus 24:16).

Jesus didn’t say merely that He would tell us the truth, or show us the truth, as many religious leaders have promised. No, He said, “I am the truth.” He didn’t say that He would show us the way to have life – He said, “I am the way and the life.” Such claims would be blasphemous if they weren’t true.

Jesus also accepted worship from His followers, and claimed to forgive other people’s sins (Matt. 28:16-17; Mark 2:5-10). Such acts are only for God. “If Jesus isn’t God, He isn’t good,” because it would be wicked of Him to accept worship, and to claim to have power and authority that He lacked.

So, everybody, what is your verdict? If you had been there when Jesus’ opponents accused Him of blasphemy, what would you have said?

Would you, too, have reached for the nearest rock?

“Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?” – John 8:46
Reply
#7
2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

Titus 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

The above constructs (in bold) in the Greek are examples of the Granville Sharp Rule ~ the gist of the rule is that when 2 nouns that are singular and are not proper names are joined together with ‘and’ (και) and only 1 of them has ‘the article’ (του) then both the nouns refer to the same person.

Here is the Greek for the above:

2 Peter 1:1 του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου
Word-for-word translation: the God of us and Savior of us Jesus Christ

Titus 2:13 του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου
Word-for-word translation: the great God and Savior of us Jesus Christ

It can be seen that both Peter and Paul use substantially the same terms to describe Jesus as ‘the God of us’.
Reply
#8
(05-18-2013, 03:23 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(04-03-2013, 01:43 PM)MAlan Wrote: It seems to me that many people have difficulty accepting the Trinity because they cannot believe that three Persons can be one Godhead -- separate and yet one.

The basic problem is that we are inside of creation, as creatures, while God is outside of it. The triune God is not part of creation, nor bound by its laws of space, matter and time, any more than an artist is part of the painting he creates. The artist has abilities, choices, dimensions and much more than the painting could never "understand."

It is impossible for created mortals to understand how three can be one, because such a thing is not possible within creation.

If the Trinity were easy to understand and explain, I would dismiss it as a manmade fable. If Jesus and His disciples had been manufacturing a new religion with the hope of attracting zillions of followers, they would have made it one that people could readily understand. What they did instead was tell the truth. Read any Greek or Roman myth, and you can see that they are plausible in a way -- people could accept that Athena sprang fully formed from Zeus's head, because they recognized all of the factors involved -- one goddess, one god, one head, etc.

But three Persons in one Godhead? It is beyond our understanding, as one would expect of a truly "supernatural" existence. The unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is understandable only so far as we can accept it on faith and through the witness of the Bible.

Two things are clear concerning this matter: We see through a glass darkly; and without faith, it is impossible to please God.

And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
~1 John 5:8~

What do you make of the above? Would you call Jesus both my God and my Lord like Apostle Thomas or the Son of the true living God like Apostle Peter?

1Jn 5:6 This is He who came through water and blood--Jesus Christ, not only by the water, but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is He who witnesses, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear witness:
1Jn 5:8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

When analyzing a verse we should garner as much of the context as necessary to make the meaning of the verse come to light. In verse 6 we are told that Jesus ‘came through water and blood’ and that the Spirit testifies to the veracity of those facts. So then in verses 7-8 the 3 that witness are the Spirit and the dual aspects of the coming of Jesus – and these 3 agree as 1.
Reply
#9
(05-20-2013, 10:39 AM)MAlan Wrote: Jesus is God and the Son of God.

As a mortal human inside creation, I don’t understand how the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit can be three and yet one. In fact, if I could understand, I’d say that this is a man-made religion. I can’t understand how the three Persons of the Trinity are one; but then, They are outside of creation, while I am inside it.

The clay understands nothing about the potter. The painting has no way to comprehend the life of the artist.

If Jesus’ disciples had wanted to start a successful new religion, they’d have done better to develop a cosmology that people could understand – along the lines of the human-like deities of Greece, Rome or Egypt. Instead, they proclaimed a triune Godhead Who has no counterpart, no frame of reference, inside creation. It seems quite logical that we mortals don’t, and can’t, understand the tri-unity of God, since there is nothing truly like it in nature.

If we were to say that Jesus is only the Son of God, not God, we would be saying that He has some degree of divine nature and supernatural power. We would be saying that He is above mortals, but not quite God. I’d say that would make Him a kind of demigod, a lesser deity – and that would make our faith polytheistic. No, our faith proclaims that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10).

I believe Jesus is God and the Son of God because that is clearly what the writers of the New Testament proclaim, and I believe they were inspired to do so by the Holy Spirit.

Terms that identify and describe God in the Old Testament are used for Jesus in the New. For example:

God is the Creator – Isaiah 40:28. Jesus is the Creator – John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17

God is “I Am” -- Exodus 3:14. Jesus is “I Am” - - John 8:58

God is the Shepherd – Psalm 23:1, Isaiah 40:11. Jesus is the Shepherd: John 10:11, Hebrews 13:20

God is the First and the Last – Isaiah 41:4, 44:6. Jesus is the First and the Last – Rev. 1:17, 2:8, 22:13

God is the Savior -- Isaiah 43:3, 11; 45:21. Jesus is the Savior – John 4:42, I John 4:14

God is the Rock – Deuteronomy 32:4. Jesus is the Rock – I Corinthians 10:4

God is the Light – Psalm 27:1, Isaiah 60:20. Jesus is the Light – Luke 2:32, John 8:12

God is the Judge – Joel 3:12. Jesus is the Judge – II Corinthians 5:10, II Timothy 4:1

In John 8:56-59 and 10:22-39, Jesus’ Jewish listeners clearly understood that He claimed to be God; that is why they accused Him of blasphemy and attempted to stone Him (in accordance with Leviticus 24:16).

Jesus didn’t say merely that He would tell us the truth, or show us the truth, as many religious leaders have promised. No, He said, “I am the truth.” He didn’t say that He would show us the way to have life – He said, “I am the way and the life.” Such claims would be blasphemous if they weren’t true.

Jesus also accepted worship from His followers, and claimed to forgive other people’s sins (Matt. 28:16-17; Mark 2:5-10). Such acts are only for God. “If Jesus isn’t God, He isn’t good,” because it would be wicked of Him to accept worship, and to claim to have power and authority that He lacked.

So, everybody, what is your verdict? If you had been there when Jesus’ opponents accused Him of blasphemy, what would you have said?

Would you, too, have reached for the nearest rock?

“Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?” – John 8:46

Here are a few more examples of Jesus' claims of deity, and similar claims by the writers of the New Testament.

Was Jesus committing blasphemy? Were His disciples, including the writers of the New Testament? Whom should be accused?

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus says that it is He Himself who will say who enters Heaven. The verses include this statement: "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"

In Matthew 12:6-8, Jesus says that He is the Lord of the Sabbath. "For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath." Who can be Lord of the Sabbath except God?

Deuteronomy 6:13 proclaims that we must worship the Lord our God, and serve Him only. Jesus quoted that verse to Satan during His temptations. Yet Jesus accepted worship from people -- see Matthew 14:33 and John 9:38.

Peter rebuked a man who knelt before him in a gesture of worship (Acts 10:26), and Paul was appalled at the suggestion that he himself should be worshipped (Acts 14:8-18)-- and yet both Peter and Paul worshipped Jesus. They would not have done so if they had believed Jesus was only a man. (And a good man who is not God would not have accepted their praise!)

When children in the Temple call out to Jesus in adoration (Matthew 21:15-16), Jesus accepts their praise, quoting Psalm 8:2. He is saying in effect, "When those children praise Me, they are praising God."

In Matthew 7:26-29, Jesus says, "Everyone who hears these sayings of Mine..." He doesn't say, "Everyone who hears the words of God or of Torah..."

In Isaiah 42:22-23, the prophet says that every knee will bow to God. In Philippians 2:6-11, Paul says that "at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow..."

And in Acts 20:28, Paul tells the elders, "Therefore, take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood."

Clearly, Jesus and His followers, including the writers of the New Testament, believed Him to be God.

"Which of you convicts me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?" -- John 8:46
Reply
#10
(05-20-2013, 10:39 AM)MAlan Wrote: Jesus is God and the Son of God.

So then what is the difference between the above and a Oneness?
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)