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Because they keep the easy laws...
MessianicJew Wrote:I think you're trying to create a contradiction out of bias to my thought process where there isn't any to be found!

There you go with the whole "bias" thing again. I think you're dodging here:
You say prophets were sent to rebuke only their own generation, and their words were not applicable to any other generation. Yet your text says that all Scripture (and recall that only the Jewish Scripture was extant when Paul said this) is good for reproof and teaching. Therefore, either you are mistaken or your text is mistaken.

But let's look into Israelite history and see if your theology is found therein. When the Jews were in trouble with idolatry in the Book of Judges, how many times were they commanded to bring sacrifices to reconcile themselves with G-D? Zero. How many sin-sacrifices did they bring? Also zero. How were they saved from their enemies? Crying out to G-D:
"But when they cried out to the L-RD, He raised up for them a deliverer, Othniel son of Kenaz, Caleb’s younger brother, who saved them" (3:9)
"Again the Israelites cried out to the L-RD, and He gave them a deliverer—Ehud, a left-handed man, the son of Gera the Benjamite" (3:15)

When Jonah was sent to Nineveh to warn them of G-D's intent to overturn the city, what was it that reversed the decree? Did they turn to the blood of the Messiah or of animals? No:
"When G-D saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, He relented and did not bring on them the destruction He had threatened." (Jonah 3:10)

Let's say you are correct, and Hosea was only speaking to his generation: Why didn't he say anything about blood? "Return to G-D?" "Take words?" I thought they had the Temple and the sacrificial services? He doesn't even consider blood and sacrifice. Why not, if blood is essential?
(01-02-2014, 10:50 PM)benyosef Wrote: There you go with the whole "bias" thing again. I think you're dodging here:
You say prophets were sent to rebuke only their own generation, and their words were not applicable to any other generation. Yet your text says that all Scripture (and recall that only the Jewish Scripture was extant when Paul said this) is good for reproof and teaching. Therefore, either you are mistaken or your text is mistaken.

You're being silly, you cannot rebuke a man for a sin he did not commit. Anyone who is not bias as you are can read that each Prophet rebuked that generation for the sins they committed. Because of this, you can see that each Prophet spoke to that generation and their sins they committed.
(01-03-2014, 01:20 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: You're being silly, you cannot rebuke a man for a sin he did not commit. Anyone who is not bias as you are can read that each Prophet rebuked that generation for the sins they committed. Because of this, you can see that each Prophet spoke to that generation and their sins they committed.

Of course you cannot rebuke a man for what he didn't do. However, the methods of reconciliation with G-D which the prophets offer are still useful, even to those who did not commit the misdeed singled out by said prophet. True, Hosea was rebuking them for idolatry, but if prayer works for as serious a sin as idolatry, surely it should work for less-severe sins. This is demonstrated in Leviticus 4:1-2, where we see that sin-offerings only work on unintentional sins, which are the least of sins. It cannot work on intentional sins, which is one reason the prophets never, ever told the Jews they needed to bring sacrifices to get back on good terms with G-D.
(01-05-2014, 11:23 PM)benyosef Wrote: Of course you cannot rebuke a man for what he didn't do. However, the methods of reconciliation with G-D which the prophets offer are still useful, even to those who did not commit the misdeed singled out by said prophet. True, Hosea was rebuking them for idolatry, but if prayer works for as serious a sin as idolatry, surely it should work for less-severe sins. This is demonstrated in Leviticus 4:1-2, where we see that sin-offerings only work on unintentional sins, which are the least of sins. It cannot work on intentional sins, which is one reason the prophets never, ever told the Jews they needed to bring sacrifices to get back on good terms with G-D.

Alright, so then Hosea and his prophecy does not apply to your specific generation. There are a list of sins, and then each Prophet rebuked each generation for the sins from the list found within the Torah that they have committed. Just like a rap sheet.

Leviticus 4:1-2 doesn't demonstrate a thing to do with prayer! It is all about atonement through sacrifice of blood!
MessianicJew Wrote:…Hosea and his prophecy does not apply to your specific generation.

Let’s say you are correct that Hosea’s prophecy does not in any way apply to any generation but the one to whom he spoke; why is he advocating prayer at all? He lived during the First Temple, so surely he knew of the importance of blood sacrifices; why didn’t he mention it?

Of course, the prophets all knew that sacrifices were not as important as prayer and repentance. During the reign of King Saul, the prophet Samuel chided him by pointing out that “to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams” (I Samuel 15:22). You can bring all the animals you want, but if you’re not listening to G-D’s commandments, what good is the blood you shed? Should you argue that Samuel was only talking to Saul and no one else, the manner of his comment illustrates it is a well-known dictum, not just a rule that only Saul had to keep in mind.

When Solomon was inaugurating the Temple he offered a lengthy prayer to G-D. What is interesting is that although there was now a Temple (and all the sacrifices therein), he made no mention at all of sacrifices in his prayer. Instead, he said things like:
“And hearken Thou to the supplication of Thy servant, and of Thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling place: and when Thou hearest, forgive.” (v. 30)
“When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against Thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess Thy name, and turn from their sin, when Thou afflictest them, then hear Thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of Thy servants, and of Thy people Israel…(35-36)
“What prayer and supplication soever be made by any man, or by all Thy people Israel…then hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling place, and forgive…” (38-39)

Lest you think these comments only apply to his generation, and none other:
“If they sin against Thee, for there is no man that sinneth not, and Thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near…[yet] return unto Thee with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, which led them away captive, and pray unto Thee…then hear Thou their prayer and their supplication…and forgive Thy people that have sinned against Thee…” (v. 46-50)

Clearly prayer is effective in any time in history, wherever one happens to be.

It was on this last point that I mentioned Leviticus 4:1-2 again; not because Leviticus 4 speaks of prayer (it doesn’t), but because it demonstrates that sacrifices can only work in one situation: unintentional sin. By contrast, there is no limit to prayer and repentance’s atoning power.
(01-15-2014, 10:25 PM)benyosef Wrote: Let’s say you are correct that Hosea’s prophecy does not in any way apply to any generation but the one to whom he spoke; why is he advocating prayer at all? He lived during the First Temple, so surely he knew of the importance of blood sacrifices; why didn’t he mention it?

Because you need both and in sincerity. Anyone can plop a cow down as a sacrifice but never pray never do anything other than bring a sacrifice. Elohim wanted the heart more than the sacrifice. But you still needed both to keep the Torah.

(01-15-2014, 10:25 PM)benyosef Wrote: Of course, the prophets all knew that sacrifices were not as important as prayer and repentance. During the reign of King Saul, the prophet Samuel chided him by pointing out that “to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams” (I Samuel 15:22). You can bring all the animals you want, but if you’re not listening to G-D’s commandments, what good is the blood you shed? Should you argue that Samuel was only talking to Saul and no one else, the manner of his comment illustrates it is a well-known dictum, not just a rule that only Saul had to keep in mind.

I agree, but I disagree that you are going to go into the life to come without sacrifice of blood and the Aaronic Priesthood not to mention all the other areas of the law of Moses. Judaism says "but we can't do it because" then they tell you of tragic events in history, but it is just that, fact within a historical timeline, it completely doesn't even touch on the spiritual and salvation implications of being born a Jew in a generation that is not capable of keeping the law of Moses!
(01-15-2014, 10:25 PM)benyosef Wrote: What is interesting is that although there was now a Temple (and all the sacrifices therein), he made no mention at all of sacrifices in his prayer.

Why is that interesting? King Solomon was a sinner, he multiplied wives to himself, in fact he did so much that he was mentioned in Nehemiah as a reason to not do what he did, because it was sin. So his prayer was a prayer that didn't even have anything to do with the law of his Fathers.
(01-15-2014, 10:25 PM)benyosef Wrote: Lest you think these comments only apply to his generation, and none other:
“If they sin against Thee, for there is no man that sinneth not, and Thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near…[yet] return unto Thee with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, which led them away captive, and pray unto Thee…then hear Thou their prayer and their supplication…and forgive Thy people that have sinned against Thee…” (v. 46-50)

See, this is exactly what I mean! Cherry picking, you just lead Jews down the primrose path to mediocrity like it is nothing!

62 And the king, and all Israel with him, offered sacrifice before the Lord.

63 And Solomon
, which he offered unto the Lord, two and twenty thousand oxen, and an hundred and twenty thousand sheep. So the king and all the children of Israel dedicated the house of the Lord.

It is also appalling to me that your sect has become so delusional into accepting this lie, that you readily preach it the world over without one reference I might add, to the response of Elohim!

1 Kings 9
2 That the Lord appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon.

3 And the Lord said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.

6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:

7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

8 And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the Lord done thus unto this land, and to this house?

9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the Lord their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the Lord brought upon them all this evil.

King Solomon not only multiplied wives, but he sinned with their gods too! Do they teach you that in Yeshiva?
(01-15-2014, 10:25 PM)benyosef Wrote: Clearly prayer is effective in any time in history, wherever one happens to be.

It was on this last point that I mentioned Leviticus 4:1-2 again; not because Leviticus 4 speaks of prayer (it doesn’t), but because it demonstrates that sacrifices can only work in one situation: unintentional sin. By contrast, there is no limit to prayer and repentance’s atoning power.

Clearly prayer is not effective in any time in history as 1 Kings 9 clearly proves.

Every sin should be unintentional. In the New Testament, sin is always unintentional, as you cannot condone your sins! That would make them intentional sins. How can you teach that you believe in intentional sin? That doesn't even make sense, it isn't Jewish.

And you still need sacrifice of blood to this day, as I clearly showed above!
MJ Wrote:…you need [prayer and sacrifice] in sincerity....

I agree that G-D prefers obedience to sacrifices, and have given sources to support it, but why didn’t Hosea mention both prayer and sacrifice? All he said was prayer.

I'm confused: your side insists that sacrifices are the most important element of serving G-D, and you have argued that prayer is not nearly as good as fat of rams. Now you are saying that sacrifice without prayer is not as effective; are you turning an about-face?

MJ Wrote:Why is that interesting? King Solomon was a sinner, he multiplied wives to himself, in fact he did so much that he was mentioned in Nehemiah as a reason to not do what he did, because it was sin.

It is interesting because on the first day of the sacrificial system in the Temple, Solomon did not once mention sacrifices. Why not, if you're correct? He should have at least mentioned it once, if not go all out and say that now we can bring the fat of rams to be on G-D's good side.

Although the Torah says Solomon was not right for his many wives, Nehemiah still calls him “beloved of G-D.” You make it seem like Nehemiah tells us not to pray, but that's not found anywhere. Are you inventing commentary?

MJ Wrote:Cherry picking…62 And the king, and all Israel with him, offered sacrifice before the Lord…

You need to pay attention to what I write: in Solomon’s entire speech, he never mentioned sacrifice. The sacrifices brought in I Kings 8 were not for sin, but were peace and burnt offerings as a sign of closeness with G-D, much like the sacrifices Avraham and Noah brought.
And what does G-D say in response? He tells Solomon that He heard his prayer, and that if he follows in His ways, he will reign and all will be well, and if not, the Jews would be exiled.

MJ Wrote:Clearly prayer is not effective in any time in history as 1 Kings 9 clearly proves. Every sin should be unintentional. In the [NT], sin is always unintentional, as you cannot condone your sins! That would make them intentional sins. How can you teach that you believe in intentional sin? That doesn't even make sense, it isn't Jewish.

Clearly prayer must be effective if even you will say it must be paired with sacrifice. Additionally, Solomon says that when there is no Temple, we are to use prayer. What more could he have said to tell you that prayer is useful wherever, whenever you are?

What do you mean by saying I teach to believe in intentional sin? That doesn’t make sense, and is not in line with anything I’ve said until now. Do you know the difference between intentional and unintentional?

MJ Wrote:And you still need sacrifice of blood to this day, as I clearly showed above!

You have not clearly shown this. You’ve said it a bunch of times, but you’ve shown little support in face of the evidence that has been presented against you.


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