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Because they keep the easy laws...
#11
Quote:Your sarcasm is noted. But the truth is at the time Moses was alive they didn't keep the law, Moses asked how much more they would fall away at his death, so they failed in Sinai, in the promise land, from the first temple to the dispersion and then back to the 2nd temple. It is failure.
I agree with you. We didn't deserve the temples, and so they got destroyed.
How does that turn into : One single sin is enough to stop following all the other laws. You keep going on and on about how we don't follow specific laws. Well I have news for you, you follow less laws than we do. The difference is you are completely okay with not following any laws because somehow, you got to the conclusion that by having faith in Jesus, you are cleansed of all sin...

Let's use chronological logic, shall we? We both believe in the Torah. You believe in the NT as well. Obviously the NT came after the Torah. Please make a convincing case, using nothing but quotes from the Torah, that some day we will be allowed to no longer do the Sabbath. Or that someday there will be a new set of laws that will abolish the old ones. Or that a human being can be equal to God. Or that a human being will have the right to contradict Hashem...

Do not come and give me historical evidence. I want biblical/scriptural proof that I believe in, simply because there would be no reason to believe in the NT unless you have proof of its authenticity from what is considered a reliable source. To me, and what should be to you as well, a reliable source is the Tanakh.

(06-26-2013, 09:09 AM)dantech Wrote: Actually I just got an even better idea! Why not just believe in Jesus and get a license to kill, rob, and anything else I want to do.

If you actually did this, you would wake up in outer darkness or worse. You would be considered a false convert and a liar.
[/quote]

Why? It doesn't add up.
You said he fulfilled the commandments. He fulfilled the Sabbath, and therefore we no longer have to observe it. He fulfilled the forbidding of eating pork, and therefore we can eat it. Did he not fulfill all the Mitzvot? If he did, and if he fulfilled not eating pork and now allowing us to eat it as not being a sin, then what's the difference with killing. Why can't I kill?
#12
(06-29-2013, 06:59 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(06-25-2013, 12:35 PM)benyosef Wrote: Yeah, look at those Jews, unable to keep the laws regarding the Temple services without the Temple in which to perform those services. They should just abandon the Torah and accept other religions and believe in false gods, right?
You're not Holy enough to be able to allow a Temple to stay up in the first place! And your suggestion that worshiping false gods would be my suggestion is wishful thinking on your part.
For someone who uses the username MessianicJew, why do you always disassociate yourself with the Israelites/Jews from the past when you're arguing that you're an Israelite? Wouldn't your family be part of this past history too?

What does Hebrews say about Christians who continue to sin?

If they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."{Hebrews 6:6}

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."{Hebrews 10:26}

It is a double standard by which many Christians in this forum argue when they themselves are responsible for the continual death of their messiah, and are no longer with a sacrifice for sins. What do you do now? It looks like you ran out of cake.
#13
(07-01-2013, 01:37 PM)dantech Wrote: The difference is you are completely okay with not following any laws because somehow, you got to the conclusion that by having faith in Jesus, you are cleansed of all sin...

[quote='dantech' pid='87360' dateline='1372262998']
Actually I just got an even better idea! Why not just believe in Jesus and get a license to kill, rob, and anything else I want to do.

We still have our sin natures even after we put our faith (obedient trust) in Jesus; we will never be completely like Him -- perfect -- in this earthly life, but in the life with Him that is to come.

However, "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." -- 1 John 1:9.

With the help of the Holy Spirit, we fight against our tendency to sin, although we remain sinners (but, by God's grace and through faith in Jesus, we are saved sinners).

The Holy Spirit empowers us to live a holier life. We are crucified with Jesus (Galatians 2:20), but crucifixion is a slow death -- and so our fight against sin continues until death.

Anyone who belongs to Jesus and has His Spirit should live a life that pleases Him, honors Him, and encourages others to put their faith (obedient trust) in Him.

"Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's." -- 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

"But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith..." -- 1 Timothy 6:11-12

Any of us can point to Christians who don't seem very Christian --e.g. they are quarrelsome, gossipy, etc. -- but they may have been far worse before putting their faith in Jesus. None of us knows what struggles against sin another person is having, or how difficult it is for them to follow Him.

As someone wrote,

"O give me eyes, that I may see
Lest I, as people will,
Should pass by someone's Calvary
and think it just a hill."
#14
(07-02-2013, 07:03 AM)MAlan Wrote:
(07-01-2013, 01:37 PM)dantech Wrote: The difference is you are completely okay with not following any laws because somehow, you got to the conclusion that by having faith in Jesus, you are cleansed of all sin...

[quote='dantech' pid='87360' dateline='1372262998']
Actually I just got an even better idea! Why not just believe in Jesus and get a license to kill, rob, and anything else I want to do.

We still have our sin natures even after we put our faith (obedient trust) in Jesus; we will never be completely like Him -- perfect -- in this earthly life, but in the life with Him that is to come.

However, "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." -- 1 John 1:9.

With the help of the Holy Spirit, we fight against our tendency to sin, although we remain sinners (but, by God's grace and through faith in Jesus, we are saved sinners).

The Holy Spirit empowers us to live a holier life. We are crucified with Jesus (Galatians 2:20), but crucifixion is a slow death -- and so our fight against sin continues until death.

Anyone who belongs to Jesus and has His Spirit should live a life that pleases Him, honors Him, and encourages others to put their faith (obedient trust) in Him.

"Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's." -- 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

"But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith..." -- 1 Timothy 6:11-12

Any of us can point to Christians who don't seem very Christian --e.g. they are quarrelsome, gossipy, etc. -- but they may have been far worse before putting their faith in Jesus. None of us knows what struggles against sin another person is having, or how difficult it is for them to follow Him.

As someone wrote,

"O give me eyes, that I may see
Lest I, as people will,
Should pass by someone's Calvary
and think it just a hill."

No disrespect, but you and others continuously ignore the points I make, and give me the same block of text about how by believing in Jesus, you are saved...
I clearly made a point to ask for chronological proof not using the NT, and what did you give me? two quotes from the NT.

If I write a book saying that I am God, and then quote to you verses from that book proving that I am God, will you believe me? No, because you don't believe in the book I wrote to begin with.

Give me a reason to believe in the NT. To do so, you may only use something I believe is the truth. The truth, to me, is ANYTHING from the Tanakh.
#15
(07-02-2013, 07:40 AM)dantech Wrote:
(07-02-2013, 07:03 AM)MAlan Wrote:
(07-01-2013, 01:37 PM)dantech Wrote: The difference is you are completely okay with not following any laws because somehow, you got to the conclusion that by having faith in Jesus, you are cleansed of all sin...

[quote='dantech' pid='87360' dateline='1372262998']
Actually I just got an even better idea! Why not just believe in Jesus and get a license to kill, rob, and anything else I want to do.

We still have our sin natures even after we put our faith (obedient trust) in Jesus; we will never be completely like Him -- perfect -- in this earthly life, but in the life with Him that is to come.

However, "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." -- 1 John 1:9.

With the help of the Holy Spirit, we fight against our tendency to sin, although we remain sinners (but, by God's grace and through faith in Jesus, we are saved sinners).

The Holy Spirit empowers us to live a holier life. We are crucified with Jesus (Galatians 2:20), but crucifixion is a slow death -- and so our fight against sin continues until death.

Anyone who belongs to Jesus and has His Spirit should live a life that pleases Him, honors Him, and encourages others to put their faith (obedient trust) in Him.

"Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's." -- 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

"But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith..." -- 1 Timothy 6:11-12

Any of us can point to Christians who don't seem very Christian --e.g. they are quarrelsome, gossipy, etc. -- but they may have been far worse before putting their faith in Jesus. None of us knows what struggles against sin another person is having, or how difficult it is for them to follow Him.

As someone wrote,

"O give me eyes, that I may see
Lest I, as people will,
Should pass by someone's Calvary
and think it just a hill."

No disrespect, but you and others continuously ignore the points I make, and give me the same block of text about how by believing in Jesus, you are saved...
I clearly made a point to ask for chronological proof not using the NT, and what did you give me? two quotes from the NT.

If I write a book saying that I am God, and then quote to you verses from that book proving that I am God, will you believe me? No, because you don't believe in the book I wrote to begin with.

Give me a reason to believe in the NT. To do so, you may only use something I believe is the truth. The truth, to me, is ANYTHING from the Tanakh.

If you wrote a book in which you claimed to be God, you would have to accompany it with (to list only a few things) the living of a perfect life, the fulfillment of many prophecies, the corroborating testimony of many living witnesses, and your physical resurrection from the dead, leaving no body in your tomb for any opponents to put on public display.

What you "believe is the truth" is merely the standard you have chosen for yourself. No one is required to agree with it, or jump through the hoops you hold up, or stake their eternal destiny on what you believe to be true.

I ask no one to follow me or uphold my standard of truth -- neither does Jews for Jesus ask that anyone hold its ministry to be that against which everyone and everything is measured.

I, and Jews for Jesus, point to Jesus as the One who should be followed and the standard by which all other "truths" are measured; and we proclaim that the Brit Hadashah is the true record of His birth, ministry, fulfillment of prophecies, death and resurrection.

You have the free will to reject Him and that record.

I believe what God reveals through the Tanakh and the Brit Hadashah ("The Bible is a book with the answers in the back," as one Jewish believer noted). No one who categorically rejects Jesus and the testimony of those who knew and followed Him will find the Brit Hadashah convincing -- nor will anyone who rejects Jesus understand the types and shadows of Him that are in the Tanakh, such as Isaiah 52-53, no matter how patiently those foreshadowings are explained.

"But He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead." -- Luke 16:31

"Your search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to me that you may have life." -- John 5:39-40

This Jews for Jesus web site offers a number of answers to Jewish objections concerning Jesus in the section "Answers" (as well as in other sections).

Books which are helpful include Michael L. Brown's five-volume set about Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, and Lee Strobel's The Case for the Real Jesus -- those books are available through the Jews for Jesus store (in this web site), among many other places.

Another helpful book is What the Rabbis Know About the Messiah, by Rachmiel Frydland, which is available through amazon.com and other suppliers.

Mr. Frydland, a Polish survivor of the Holocaust who was raised in Jewish Orthodoxy, wrote in that book:

"...Messiah's death is distinctly connected with the atoning work that the Temple sacrifices were to accomplish, except that it would be a work of completion and fulfillment far greater than any Temple sacrifices could possibly secure. I was thus enabled to lay aside my fears and prejudices and to open the Brit Hadasha and learn more of him, who, as the Prophet says,'...He was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement for our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed'...

"...Believers in Yeshua took seriously their Lord's command to be witnesses to the end of the earth, but 'first to the Jew' and 'beginning in Jerusalem'. To support their witness, they had a risen Messiah, prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures, and the historical facts that followed Messiah's resurrection. The rabbi's counter-arguments did not even satisfy their own disciples, therefore they resorted to strengthening the wall of partition between those who believed in Messiah Yeshua and those who did not.

"This could not go on forever, and so especially today we see the walls, erected so artificially, crumbling before our own eyes, and again thousands of Jewish people, especially the young and the intellectual, are finding their joy, salvation and satisfaction in Messiah Yeshua."
#16
(07-02-2013, 07:40 AM)dantech Wrote: No disrespect, but you and others continuously ignore the points I make, and give me the same block of text about how by believing in Jesus, you are saved...
I clearly made a point to ask for chronological proof not using the NT, and what did you give me? two quotes from the NT.

If I write a book saying that I am God, and then quote to you verses from that book proving that I am God, will you believe me? No, because you don't believe in the book I wrote to begin with.

Give me a reason to believe in the NT. To do so, you may only use something I believe is the truth. The truth, to me, is ANYTHING from the Tanakh.
I agree with you. This is consistently what happens. As I've brought up before, since Yeshua proclaimed to prove his messiahship using the Torah and Tanakh, every other Christian in this forum should be able to as well.

I haven't seen it, and when proof texts are sited, they can be refuted.
#17
YESHUA...


Mal_1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

Joh_19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
#18
(07-04-2013, 08:35 AM)MAlan Wrote: If you wrote a book in which you claimed to be God, you would have to accompany it with (to list only a few things) the living of a perfect life, the fulfillment of many prophecies, the corroborating testimony of many living witnesses, and your physical resurrection from the dead, leaving no body in your tomb for any opponents to put on public display.
Jesus lived a perfect life? Which part exactly? The one where he got tortured? Crucified? Laughed at and dismissed by most of the population? Jesus, if anything, has had a better "life" after his death - once all the rumors became legends and were put into a book (A few hundred years later): which brings me to the next point...

testimony of living witnesses... Tell me, which living witnesses actually gave testimonials about Jesus' greatness? The only testimonies you have are from people who never even saw his face, much less witness him perform anything valuable.

What if, in 300 years, people start talking about me, and reminiscing about all their childhood stories that were told to them by their parents, which were told to them by their parents, etc... Obviously my stories will start becoming exaggerated, and at some point in time, I might be seen as a God. How is that any different to what happened in the NT?

Jesus lived, and was perhaps a great man, who knows?? Maybe at some point he fell into a coma, and woke out of it a few days later. Surviving through comas, being probably rare in that time period, may have been confused as a resurrection. People starting talking and talking and talking. Then through 300 years of talking, the legend grew, and grew, and grew. Until a few firm believers decided to write a book about it. Is it absolutely impossible for such a thing to happen?


PS: Why would I, to prove that I am God, have to:
1)live a life to begin with?
2)die?
3)revive?

The trouble is that you think Jesus is God, and therefore, are manipulating what "to be God" means, to what you believe Jesus went through. If I believe that "to be God" you need to be tall, black, have a shaved head, and be great at basketball, then I can make a convincing case that Michael Jordan is God...
However, it doesn't work that way. You can't change the definition for it to accommodate your beliefs..
#19
(07-05-2013, 04:07 AM)IamBenny Wrote: YESHUA...


Mal_1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

Joh_19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

I am really trying, but am unable to see what his has to do with anything...

Can someone help me out?
#20
(07-05-2013, 04:07 AM)IamBenny Wrote: YESHUA...


Mal_1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

Joh_19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
Benny, you consitently avoid the questions and do not provide any answers. I don't know what your verse, not from Tanakh, are supposed to prove.


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