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Because they keep the easy laws...
#31
(07-11-2013, 10:58 AM)dantech Wrote: Really? Where did I ever say an of this?

You didn't and I never said you did, I gave an example and situation and asked questions.

(07-11-2013, 10:58 AM)dantech Wrote: Almost every paragraph you write contains one of these sentences.. "Jesus fulfilled the law so we don't have to", "Having faith in Jesus will save us", "Jesus said we can't follow the law, so we have faith in him and that's all that matters" = in other words, all these say: "Screw the Torah! I'll eat pork because Jesus will save me! I can also light a huge bonfire on Saturday when I'm at the cottage with my friends, because Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath for me!"

Ironic, you ask me where you wrote something, when I never said you did in the first place, and now you actually claim almost every paragraph contains sentences that you can't even directly quote me typing.

(07-11-2013, 10:58 AM)dantech Wrote: Only problem with everything you say and have said up until this point, is that God didn't give the Torah to Jesus only. He gave it to ALL Jews or Israelites or whatever you want to call them, and they all have to abide to it.

Is your passover lamb without blemish, a male of the first year?
Do you keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month?
Do you take the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein you shall eat it?
Do you roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the internal organs?
Do you let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remains of it until the morning do you burn with fire?
Do you eat the lamb with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and in haste?

And this day shall be to you for a memorial; and you shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; you shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever.

Do you even abide to the above? Or is it some watered down Seder sit-down that is good enough because you don't have a Temple?
#32
LOL, I don't even know where to begin...


(07-13-2013, 03:02 AM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(07-11-2013, 10:58 AM)dantech Wrote: Really? Where did I ever say an of this?

You didn't and I never said you did, I gave an example and situation and asked questions.

You quoted what you wrote, and for some reason got confused thinking I am the one who wrote that.
I never said : "Really? Where did I ever say an of this?"...

Moving on,

Quote:Ironic, you ask me where you wrote something, when I never said you did in the first place
Again, mix up on your side...

Quote:and now you actually claim almost every paragraph contains sentences that you can't even directly quote me typing.
I Perhaps exaggerated, saying "almost every post" but it does come up quite often, I really don't see how you can even deny it. Do I really need to start going through your posts to quote you on that stuff about us being cut off from the Olive Tree because we don't believe in Jesus? Or about how Jesus believers can have their cake and eat it too?



Quote:Is your passover lamb without blemish, a male of the first year?
Do you keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month?
Do you take the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein you shall eat it?
Do you roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the internal organs?
Do you let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remains of it until the morning do you burn with fire?
Do you eat the lamb with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and in haste?

And this day shall be to you for a memorial; and you shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; you shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever.

Do you even abide to the above? Or is it some watered down Seder sit-down that is good enough because you don't have a Temple?

I am not going to start arguing with you on whether or not we should follow these laws to the letter without a Temple, etc...
The real question though, is how does it matter what I do, or don't do?
If I personally go through a red light, does that mean that all the other drivers in the world did as well? I'm not saying that because my passover lamb is not a first born that I am in the wrong to begin with, but I keep giving you arguments that end in the same way which is you quoting a sentence from the Torah, and showing us that we might not abide to it the way you think we should. We believe in the Talmud, which I assume you do not. We believe that an oral law was given to explain many of the laws that were written.
Anyways, I'm giving up... all your arguments are always the same, and mean absolutely nothing. Unless you decide to move away from the "is you passover lamb without blemish?" theory, don't even bother replying.
#33
MJ, you mock the Seder, yet the verse says, "and you shall keep it a feast to the L-RD throughout your generations; you shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever." So, yes, the Seder feast is still kept to this day, like we are commanded.

Blood on the doorposts? The verses say, "For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the L-RD. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt." (Exodus 12:12-13)

The blood was clearly only for that one time because G-D was smiting Egypt, and was not a rule for ensuing years.

As for the rest, when we can again bring sacrifices, we can bring the Passover sacrifice with all its nuances. Since we have no Temple now, we cannot offer sacrifices (Deut 12:6-7).

Yet the fourth gospel and others make the claim that J was a Passover sacrifice, so let's ask about him:
Was he without blemish, a male of the first year?
Was his blood applied on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses wherein his body was eaten?
Was he roasted with fire; his head with his legs, and with the internal organs?
Were the leftover bones and meat burning the following day?
Or was he only a Passover offering because he died in the first month, which could apply to about 1/12 of humans all time?
#34
(07-12-2013, 01:44 PM)benyosef Wrote: What gets lost in all this back-and-forth is that Jesus was actually asked a similar question. In the 19th chapter of the first gospel (v. 16-21) a man came to J and asked "what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" After explaining to this man that he is the supreme god and creator of the world, J answers that if he accepts him as the messiah and believes in him, he will have eternal life.

Just kidding. After showing a clear distinction between himself and G-D, J tells this man, "if you will enter into life, keep the commandments."

The man replies, "All these things have I kept from my youth up. What do I lack?"

And Jesus said, "That is impossible. No one can keep the commandments, except me. Believe in me or burn in Hell."

Just kidding. Instead, Jesus invents a command that he must give all his possessions to the poor, and that he should also follow J (presumably because he's such a great teacher).

In this exchange, J had two opportunities to relate the Christian view on the commandments. Yet, when specifically asked, he maintained the Jewish outlook that everyone can keep the Torah commandments if only they wish to.

Nowadays, J's followers present an interesting situation: not only do they not keep the commandments like their master recommends in no uncertain terms in verse 17, but they don't even keep the commandment he invented himself in verse 21 to give all one's possessions to the poor.

I guess I'm just noting the irony of the situation. Christians accuse Jews of not following the laws which are presently impossible to keep while ignoring and ridiculing the laws we do, all the while telling us to accept and follow their master (to whom they selectively listen) and his laws (which they conveniently forget or explain away).

That Rich young ruler kept every command but a heart command, he didn't give up everything before God. Who did? Jesus the Christ did. This is what makes Christ Holier than thou. He truly hates sins and hates evil, all others have gone astray like sheep. Remember, Christ had a rich man as a disciple who bought him a tomb with the rich. There is more to the commands than just obeying, you need a wholeheart.
#35
(07-15-2013, 09:36 AM)MessianicJew Wrote: That Rich young ruler kept every command but a heart command, he didn't give up everything before God...There is more to the commands than just obeying, you need a wholeheart.

Feel free to tell me where it says that, because such a line did not come up in this exchange, nor here nor in Mk 10. The man said he kept all the laws. Jesus essentially said, "Great: here's another one for you, and you will be the only person who has to keep this because none of my followers in future generations will even try to keep this." Nothing about "heart commands," not from this rich man, not from J. Why did J recommend keeping the laws if this task is truly impossible to anybody except J?

You are right that there is more than just the commandments, but you at least need the commandments. By way of analogy, I can claim to be wholehearted with my wife, but if I do nothing to show that, how will my wife feel? You think my justification of "but I love your son!" will help?

Summarily, it's one thing to say you love G-D, but what are you doing about it?

Likely, you'll say "I believe in His son, the Messiah!" Although not a Torah-based answer, this is a logical response from a Christian. Yet your master recommended keeping the commandments, so why do you not do so? Better yet, he invented a commandment, and even THAT you don't keep. How brazen that you tell Jews to follow your master to an extent you do not.

(07-15-2013, 09:36 AM)MessianicJew Wrote: [Jesus] truly hates sins and hates evil...

Not really:
"Resist ye not evil"
-J, Mt 5:39
#36
(07-15-2013, 09:36 AM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(07-12-2013, 01:44 PM)benyosef Wrote: What gets lost in all this back-and-forth is that Jesus was actually asked a similar question. In the 19th chapter of the first gospel (v. 16-21) a man came to J and asked "what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" After explaining to this man that he is the supreme god and creator of the world, J answers that if he accepts him as the messiah and believes in him, he will have eternal life.

Just kidding. After showing a clear distinction between himself and G-D, J tells this man, "if you will enter into life, keep the commandments."

The man replies, "All these things have I kept from my youth up. What do I lack?"

And Jesus said, "That is impossible. No one can keep the commandments, except me. Believe in me or burn in Hell."

Just kidding. Instead, Jesus invents a command that he must give all his possessions to the poor, and that he should also follow J (presumably because he's such a great teacher).

In this exchange, J had two opportunities to relate the Christian view on the commandments. Yet, when specifically asked, he maintained the Jewish outlook that everyone can keep the Torah commandments if only they wish to.

Nowadays, J's followers present an interesting situation: not only do they not keep the commandments like their master recommends in no uncertain terms in verse 17, but they don't even keep the commandment he invented himself in verse 21 to give all one's possessions to the poor.

I guess I'm just noting the irony of the situation. Christians accuse Jews of not following the laws which are presently impossible to keep while ignoring and ridiculing the laws we do, all the while telling us to accept and follow their master (to whom they selectively listen) and his laws (which they conveniently forget or explain away).

That Rich young ruler kept every command but a heart command, he didn't give up everything before God. Who did? Jesus the Christ did. This is what makes Christ Holier than thou. He truly hates sins and hates evil, all others have gone astray like sheep. Remember, Christ had a rich man as a disciple who bought him a tomb with the rich. There is more to the commands than just obeying, you need a wholeheart.

How do you not get tired of repeating the same things over and over again... especially when it has all been rejected countless times... we know Jesus hates sin. So do we. What's your point?
He himself sinned, how could he love God wholeheartedly when he himself sinned. Isn't that what you have been saying? You can't possibly love God wholeheartedly when you have sinned because God ordered us to follow ALL the laws completely, not just the "easy" ones. Right?
#37
(07-15-2013, 08:26 AM)dantech Wrote: I Perhaps exaggerated, saying "almost every post" but it does come up quite often, I really don't see how you can even deny it. Do I really need to start going through your posts to quote you on that stuff about us being cut off from the Olive Tree because we don't believe in Jesus? Or about how Jesus believers can have their cake and eat it too?

You grossly distorted and told a lie, and mix up or not, you cannot directly quote me saying any of that.

Me saying you being cut off from the Olive Tree because you don't believe in Jesus or about how Jesus believers can have their cake and eat it too does not equal any of the lies you wrote and claimed I said to begin with. So yes, directly quote me.

(07-15-2013, 08:26 AM)dantech Wrote: I am not going to start arguing with you on whether or not we should follow these laws to the letter without a Temple, etc...

They were given before the Temple and the fact you don't do it is another law broken and reason you're living in sin.

(07-15-2013, 08:26 AM)dantech Wrote: Anyways, I'm giving up... all your arguments are always the same, and mean absolutely nothing. Unless you decide to move away from the "is you passover lamb without blemish?" theory, don't even bother replying.

They mean nothing to corrupt Judaism, all understood. I won't move away from is your passover lamb without blemish because it proves you're lawless and are the last ones to tell Christians they need to keep Torah when you don't, hypocrite.
#38
(07-15-2013, 08:38 AM)benyosef Wrote: MJ, you mock the Seder, yet the verse says, "and you shall keep it a feast to the L-RD throughout your generations; you shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever." So, yes, the Seder feast is still kept to this day, like we are commanded. Blood on the doorposts? The blood was clearly only for that one time because G-D was smiting Egypt, and was not a rule for ensuing years.

And this day shall be to you for a memorial; and you shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; you shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever.

Ever read that part? You say you keep the seder, I asked if you kept all those rules mentioned not a seder.

(07-15-2013, 08:38 AM)benyosef Wrote: Yet the fourth gospel and others make the claim that J was a Passover sacrifice, so let's ask about him:
Was he without blemish, a male of the first year?
Was his blood applied on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses wherein his body was eaten?
Was he roasted with fire; his head with his legs, and with the internal organs?
Were the leftover bones and meat burning the following day?
Or was he only a Passover offering because he died in the first month, which could apply to about 1/12 of humans all time?

Obviously it was a comparison as they "prepared" a lamb for passover to eat with Christ, not eat Christ because he "was" the lamb. Terrible distortion though.
#39
(07-15-2013, 03:02 PM)dantech Wrote: How do you not get tired of repeating the same things over and over again... especially when it has all been rejected countless times... we know Jesus hates sin. So do we. What's your point?
He himself sinned, how could he love God wholeheartedly when he himself sinned. Isn't that what you have been saying? You can't possibly love God wholeheartedly when you have sinned because God ordered us to follow ALL the laws completely, not just the "easy" ones. Right?

Jesus never sinned.
#40
(07-15-2013, 01:28 PM)benyosef Wrote: Feel free to tell me where it says that, because such a line did not come up in this exchange, nor here nor in Mk 10. The man said he kept all the laws. Jesus essentially said, "Great: here's another one for you, and you will be the only person who has to keep this because none of my followers in future generations will even try to keep this." Nothing about "heart commands," not from this rich man, not from J. Why did J recommend keeping the laws if this task is truly impossible to anybody except J?

First off, there wasn't any commands, second, the suggestion was about perfection, of which Christ is and Christ set forward a standard for which this rich young man had to meet in order to be perfect. Second his heart condition was revealed in verse 22, And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

He was set on his riches and not willing to give them all up. He didn't have to give them up, he just had to in order to be perfect.

(07-15-2013, 01:28 PM)benyosef Wrote: You are right that there is more than just the commandments, but you at least need the commandments. By way of analogy, I can claim to be wholehearted with my wife, but if I do nothing to show that, how will my wife feel? You think my justification of "but I love your son!" will help?

Ironic, like not keeping Passover as written.

(07-15-2013, 01:28 PM)benyosef Wrote: Summarily, it's one thing to say you love G-D, but what are you doing about it?

Obviously you're not doing much if you can't even keep a Passover correctly.

(07-15-2013, 01:28 PM)benyosef Wrote: Likely, you'll say "I believe in His son, the Messiah!" Although not a Torah-based answer, this is a logical response from a Christian. Yet your master recommended keeping the commandments, so why do you not do so?

Keeping commands is subjective seeing as you don't keep Passover the way it is written. And any other laws I can find that you don't keep. So you and your entire group here are solely subjective and your rulings and decrees about commands are null and void.

(07-15-2013, 01:28 PM)benyosef Wrote: Better yet, he invented a commandment, and even THAT you don't keep. How brazen that you tell Jews to follow your master to an extent you do not.

It wasn't a command.

(07-15-2013, 01:28 PM)benyosef Wrote: Not really:
"Resist ye not evil"
-J, Mt 5:39

but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

It helps if you don't distort what is written by actually posting the entire verse. A bit of propaganda you typed there.


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