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Because they keep the easy laws...
#1
(01-22-2013, 12:35 PM)benyosef Wrote: Like I've said before, Torah-observant Jews keep the laws we are able to keep, and lament the fact we cannot fulfill all 613. No Temple? No problem, because we can still wear tefillin. No Altar? Ok, let's keep Shabbos anyway. No king or high priest? Fine, we'll make do with mezuza, a protetctive fence on our roofs, not wearing wool and linen woven together, not speaking derogatory speech, not eating shellfish, et al.

You can't pick out the easy ones to keep and lament about the rest. It is written you have to keep all statues and all commandments. God outlined the whole system, without it you live in sin and need a High Priest the Messiah.

I've said before Judaism says:

(07-25-2011, 08:45 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: Anyway, you pick out the easy ones: "New moon...check, circumcision...check...Bar/Bat Mitzvah...check...Challah bread...yummy every Shabbat...check...Sukkot, easy build a wooden structure...check, Passover, yummy...check...Trespass? Nah, sacrifice, sacrifice? Blood...icky, that's so Leviticus...."

And nobody believed me, now read Benyosef comment, mirrors what I've said above from the beginning.

I understand the way Judaism works.
#2
Yeah, look at those Jews, unable to keep the laws regarding the Temple services without the Temple in which to perform those services. They should just abandon the Torah and accept other religions and believe in false gods, right?

Torah laws are eternal, yet do not always apply. For example, the laws unique to the holiday of Sukkot do not apply during the holiday of Passover. Those who have no roof on their house (e.g. apartment-dwellers) have no obligation to put up a protective fence. Those who have no fields are not obligated to set a corner for the poor. Those who do not own livestock are not obligated to separate a tithe of animals.

So too in our current situation, where we have no obligation to perform Temple services. There are, however, explicit paths to Divine favor and atonement:

Prayer - O Israel, return to the L-RD your G-D, for you have fallen by your iniquity. Take with you words, and return to the L-RD. Say to Him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously, and we will render for bulls the offering of our lips. (Hosea 14:1-2)

Repentance - Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return to the L-RD, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our G-D, for He will abundantly pardon. (Isaiah 55:7)
The soul that sins, it shall die...the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all My statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he has committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he has done he shall live. (Ezekiel 18:20-22, but the whole chapter is worth reading)

Charity - Treasures of wickedness profit nothing, but charity saves from death. (Proverbs 10:2)

It looks as if the Christians only keep the "easy laws" because they toss away the Torah's commandments and replace them with a single declaration of "I believe!" and are thus, in their eyes, set for eternity.

I understand how Christianity works.
#3
(01-22-2013, 03:57 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(01-22-2013, 12:35 PM)benyosef Wrote: Like I've said before, Torah-observant Jews keep the laws we are able to keep, and lament the fact we cannot fulfill all 613. No Temple? No problem, because we can still wear tefillin. No Altar? Ok, let's keep Shabbos anyway. No king or high priest? Fine, we'll make do with mezuza, a protetctive fence on our roofs, not wearing wool and linen woven together, not speaking derogatory speech, not eating shellfish, et al.

You can't pick out the easy ones to keep and lament about the rest. It is written you have to keep all statues and all commandments. God outlined the whole system, without it you live in sin and need a High Priest the Messiah.

I've said before Judaism says:

(07-25-2011, 08:45 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: Anyway, you pick out the easy ones: "New moon...check, circumcision...check...Bar/Bat Mitzvah...check...Challah bread...yummy every Shabbat...check...Sukkot, easy build a wooden structure...check, Passover, yummy...check...Trespass? Nah, sacrifice, sacrifice? Blood...icky, that's so Leviticus...."

And nobody believed me, now read Benyosef comment, mirrors what I've said above from the beginning.

I understand the way Judaism works.

Wow, I never thought about it that way.
Either follow all the laws, or none at all!
Okay, well I ran a stop sign last night. I guess I'll go rob a bank and murder everyone that tries to stop me. Because obviously, the punishment for my law transgressions, whether it be from murdering or from running a stop sign, are all the same.
And since by running a stop sign, I am no longer perfect, why not just go all the way, since according to your very logical belief system, 1 sin is enough to make all the other good deeds useless, and enough to make me completely evil.

Actually I just got an even better idea! Why not just believe in Jesus and get a license to kill, rob, and anything else I want to do.
#4
You're right: I forgot the multitude of places G-D says that if you lack a single element of all the Torah laws then "you live in sin and need a High Priest the Messiah!" Why didn't I see all these sources in all my years of examining the Jewish Scriptures? The Torah is literally filled with passages that teach, "Say unto Israel; you cannot keep the laws I commanded you. Therefore, I am sending one guy to come and fulfill the law for you. Believe in him and you need never worry about your eternity again." Everywhere you look we are taught this crucial message, which surely must appear more often and in clearer terms than the many times the Torah tells about Shabbos (Ex 16:29, 20:8-11, 31:13-16, 35:2-3, Lev 19:3, Deut 5:12, et al), which of course is no longer relevant (despite the many times we're told it is eternal).
#5
(06-27-2013, 10:06 AM)benyosef Wrote: You're right: I forgot the multitude of places G-D says that if you lack a single element of all the Torah laws then "you live in sin and need a High Priest the Messiah!" Why didn't I see all these sources in all my years of examining the Jewish Scriptures? The Torah is literally filled with passages that teach, "Say unto Israel; you cannot keep the laws I commanded you. Therefore, I am sending one guy to come and fulfill the law for you. Believe in him and you need never worry about your eternity again." Everywhere you look we are taught this crucial message, which surely must appear more often and in clearer terms than the many times the Torah tells about Shabbos (Ex 16:29, 20:8-11, 31:13-16, 35:2-3, Lev 19:3, Deut 5:12, et al), which of course is no longer relevant (despite the many times we're told it is eternal).

Oh dear, Benyosef... You don't understand anything. It's not that Shabbos is not eternal, as it is very clearly stated in the Torah. It's that by believing in Jesus, you accomplish all the mitzvot, including the Shabbos, without actually having to. You accomplish the Mitzvot in a spiritual manner, rather than actually restraining yourself from the 39 Melachot that God decided should no longer apply to us.

Also, when God commanded us not to eat certain animals, he meant it in a spiritual way, somehow... Otherwise, why do Christians eat pork... Because somehow, Jesus fulfilled all the laws, including the ones forbidding us from doing things. Hold on! I just realized something! If I can eat pork, what is keeping me away from murdering people? Jesus didn't fulfill this law like all the others?

You see Benyosef, God gave a law to Moses, which he called eternal numerous times. However, God the all-knowing changed his mind at some point and decided that it no longer is valid, because even though He knows all and sees all, He didn't realize when he gave it to Moses that a few thousand years later, His people would no longer be able to follow it.
#6
(06-26-2013, 09:09 AM)dantech Wrote: Wow, I never thought about it that way.
Either follow all the laws, or none at all!
Okay, well I ran a stop sign last night. I guess I'll go rob a bank and murder everyone that tries to stop me. Because obviously, the punishment for my law transgressions, whether it be from murdering or from running a stop sign, are all the same.
And since by running a stop sign, I am no longer perfect, why not just go all the way, since according to your very logical belief system, 1 sin is enough to make all the other good deeds useless, and enough to make me completely evil.

Your sarcasm is noted. But the truth is at the time Moses was alive they didn't keep the law, Moses asked how much more they would fall away at his death, so they failed in Sinai, in the promise land, from the first temple to the dispersion and then back to the 2nd temple. It is failure.

(06-26-2013, 09:09 AM)dantech Wrote: Actually I just got an even better idea! Why not just believe in Jesus and get a license to kill, rob, and anything else I want to do.

If you actually did this, you would wake up in outer darkness or worse. You would be considered a false convert and a liar.
#7
(06-28-2013, 10:00 AM)dantech Wrote: It's not that Shabbos is not eternal, as it is very clearly stated in the Torah. It's that by believing in Jesus, you accomplish all the mitzvot, including the Shabbos, without actually having to. You accomplish the Mitzvot in a spiritual manner, rather than actually restraining yourself from the 39 Melachot that God decided should no longer apply to us.

Also, when God commanded us not to eat certain animals, he meant it in a spiritual way, somehow... Otherwise, why do Christians eat pork... Because somehow, Jesus fulfilled all the laws, including the ones forbidding us from doing things. Hold on! I just realized something! If I can eat pork, what is keeping me away from murdering people? Jesus didn't fulfill this law like all the others?

You see Benyosef, God gave a law to Moses, which he called eternal numerous times. However, God the all-knowing changed his mind at some point and decided that it no longer is valid, because even though He knows all and sees all, He didn't realize when he gave it to Moses that a few thousand years later, His people would no longer be able to follow it.

You have a twisted and distorted view of what Christ taught. Fulfilling the law and the prophets is what Christ did, but Christ being able to forgive us of sins, is not a license to sin. What you typed is practically propaganda. In fact, you just typed your monologue without even referencing the New Testament to try and prove your point!
#8
(06-25-2013, 12:35 PM)benyosef Wrote: Yeah, look at those Jews, unable to keep the laws regarding the Temple services without the Temple in which to perform those services. They should just abandon the Torah and accept other religions and believe in false gods, right?

You're not Holy enough to be able to allow a Temple to stay up in the first place! And your suggestion that worshiping false gods would be my suggestion is wishful thinking on your part.


(06-25-2013, 12:35 PM)benyosef Wrote: Repentance - Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return to the L-RD, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our G-D, for He will abundantly pardon. (Isaiah 55:7)
The soul that sins, it shall die...the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all My statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he has committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he has done he shall live. (Ezekiel 18:20-22, but the whole chapter is worth reading)

Well then you're not apart of the righteous remnant, since you're claiming to me wicked and turning from your sins.

"When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he has done shall he die."

The truly righteous does not turn from their righteousness. And Christ did not come to call the righteous to repentance but the sinner! And you claiming to be wicked, can not be apart of the righteous remnant. Because a righteous man does not turn from his righteousness. Verse 21 is for the wicked but 24 is to the righteous.

(06-25-2013, 12:35 PM)benyosef Wrote: It looks as if the Christians only keep the "easy laws" because they toss away the Torah's commandments and replace them with a single declaration of "I believe!" and are thus, in their eyes, set for eternity.

I understand how Christianity works.

For one, those Torah commandments are to the Israelite, not the Gentile. Christianity is all throughout the world. For two, Gentile Christians keep the 10 commandments, then they don't fornicate, or drink blood or eat road kill or commit adultrey. For three, in the New Testament, many of the Torah Holy days were kept by the Jesus believing Israelite! You just don't read it much.

You understand how Christianity works? That is highly doubtful. You obviously only typed that because I typed I understand how Judaism works. You weren't raised Christian though, I was raised both!
#9
(01-22-2013, 03:57 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(01-22-2013, 12:35 PM)benyosef Wrote: Like I've said before, Torah-observant Jews keep the laws we are able to keep, and lament the fact we cannot fulfill all 613. No Temple? No problem, because we can still wear tefillin. No Altar? Ok, let's keep Shabbos anyway. No king or high priest? Fine, we'll make do with mezuza, a protetctive fence on our roofs, not wearing wool and linen woven together, not speaking derogatory speech, not eating shellfish, et al.
You can't pick out the easy ones to keep and lament about the rest. It is written you have to keep all statues and all commandments. God outlined the whole system, without it you live in sin and need a High Priest the Messiah.
So, why didn't your High Priest Messiah get married and have children as required in the law, Gen 1:28; Gen 9:1? Why didn't he fulfill the law of Kings in Deut 17:14-20? Deut 17:19 requires a King to abide by all of the laws, even sacrifices. When Yeshua reigns, will he be making sacrifices as required by the law and teaching others to do the same? Since Yeshua would be making sacrifices, who is his High Priest?

It is written, you shall keep all statutes and all commandments to be perfect.

These should be easy to keep.
#10
(06-26-2013, 09:09 AM)dantech Wrote: Actually I just got an even better idea! Why not just believe in Jesus and get a license to kill, rob, and anything else I want to do.

Believing in Jesus gives no one a license to do what is evil. When we put our faith (obedient trust) in Him, we ask and receive the Holy Spirit's help to live a life that pleases Him -- not in order to earn our salvation, but to show our gratitude to Him and to encourage others.

"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." -- 2 Corinthians 7:1

"And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." -- 1 John 3:3

Anyone who has the Spirit of Messiah Jesus should live as if he does.


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