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is this true ? any proves ?, when the Jews leave the country - the economy falls!
#21
not to be obtuse but in 1492 Spain kicked out the last of the Moors and Jews and went on to be one of the wealthiest nations for centuries beyond that - of course if one waits long enough decline will always follow a rapid rise - as I recall it was the USA that put the final hammer blow to the Spanish Empire - defeating them in Cuba and the Phillipines oh well easy come easy go - soon it will be the USA's turn - did you notice Obama now has Hesbollah 'advisors' making 'recommendations' on how he should deal with Israel
#22
"in 1492 Spain kicked out the last of the Moors and Jews and went on to be one of the wealthiest nations for centuries beyond that"

On the surface it might look like that, but in reality, Spain hit a whopper of a downturn. They were a wealthy nation before that, which is why they financed the voyages of exploration. The voyages and conquests of South America were successes, but the fact is that the voyages were undertaken by a large percentage of Jews (It has been known for some time that Columbus had some key posts occupied by Jews, and there is now serious evidence being studied that Columbus himself was aware that he was of Jewish descent.) America became a huge haven for Jews to escape the inquisition, although many had converted to Catholicism. One of the Jews in the synagogue here who converted back to Judaism after discovering his roots told me a list of surnames that indicate a Jewish family, and a lot of the people I know here have those surnames.

However, while tons of gold were brought back from America, it caused serious economic problems with feudal society in Spain, causing decrease of gold value and causing a number of land lords to have to sell their land to pay debts and thus crop land was put out of service along with a large number of workers. In the century after the conquest of America, Spain lost its naval power to England who were in the process of reversing their anti-Jewish stance, and the Spanish crown became weaker and weaker. Many of the king's edicts were ignored in America, and in the space of about 200 more years Spain was taken over by Napoleon and at the same time lost almost all of its colonies. The final blow by the U.S.A. was simply the last step of 3 century skid to the bottom.

Also, as I said before, there are other factors, such as the great wickedness of the ruling peoples of America, that were part of the reason the Spanish were able to conquer America. It seems that Columbus, as an individual, was guilty of some sins that might have hastened his death, and he did not enjoy earthly prosperity, but I believe he is with the Lord and will yet receive his blessing.
#23
ok
which countries were the most hospitable to Jews in the history?
and what evidential economical blessings of these countries?
Can we apply these economical blessings to Netherlands or Belgium?
Also I'm interested in the question
if nations for example are aware of their right to independence and respect their land, their language, their culture, is not a right of the people to fight for these rights even if opponents of their nationalist ideas are the Jews ?
I mean that in the history there have been times when the ruling political and economical elites, were not the titular nations and this fact, caused anger of the titular nations who were under oppressions.
that's why there were peasant uprisings.
that is why there were fighting against Bolshevism,national liberation uprisingand so on..
So, you proponents of the view that one can not be, for example in opposition to the Jews, just because they belong to God's people?
#24
Quote:Also I'm interested in the question
if nations for example are aware of their right to independence and respect their land, their language, their culture, is not a right of the people to fight for these rights even if opponents of their nationalist ideas are the Jews?
I mean that in the history there have been times when the ruling political and economical elites, were not the titular nations and this fact, caused anger of the titular nations who were under oppressions.
that's why there were peasant uprisings.
That depends ~ YHVH gave Canaan to Abraham and his seed – Israel (the Jews) – some call this area Palestine today – no matter – this area belongs to Israel – if the current day inhabitants who are not of Israel are claiming titular rights to this area then their claims are voided by the title given by YHVH to Abraham and his seed.
#25
"ok
which countries were the most hospitable to Jews in the history?
and what evidential economical blessings of these countries?
Can we apply these economical blessings to Netherlands or Belgium?"

I don't have time right now to do a survey of the history of 200 countries. I gave several examples. You have internet. The Bible prophecy of Numbers 24:9 is clear. I have seen it to be consistently correct; you see if you can prove God wrong.

"Also I'm interested in the question
if nations for example are aware of their right to independence and respect their land, their language, their culture, is not a right of the people to fight for these rights even if opponents of their nationalist ideas are the Jews ?"

No. It is much better for these nationalists to forget their nationalist dreams and let the Jews take over. If a Jew commits a crime, of course he should be punished, but all this talk about being a titled owner of a country gets dangerously hazy. I do not believe in wars of independence except as defense against murderous intent.

"So, you proponents of the view that one can not be, for example in opposition to the Jews, just because they belong to God's people?"

Okay, so now we know what we are dealing with here.
#26
Okay, so now we know what we are dealing with here.
[/quote]
do not go with emotions emotions are not arguments
History was difficult
That is why I asked the question
Look I am citizen of Ukraine.

For example there have been periods of history when Ukrainian peasant realized that an influential national minority was not on his side and on the side of the empires that ruled his land.
There were periods when the farmer who wants to marry or baptize a baby and suddenly realizes that he is dependent on permits and taxes from those who do not belong to his nation nor even profess his religion.
Or Representative titular nation that wants to have their own state, but in the world of economy - no industry, no trade, no land, does not belong belong to him.
and later, for example the same national title nation recognized that handhold Bolshevism are those who do not wish it to their state built.

We know also from the history that Bolsheviks rule was most tragic for Ukrtainian pesants. millions of peasants were suppressed most brutal methods.
There was a time when Ukrainian were deported on earth wanting to seize their land and only because they were too many and there was no enough transport and possibilities to deport all of them .
I agree that the current economic woes in developing countries blame the system but not any minorities. But I'll try put yourself in the place of my ancestors and try to find ways to solve problems in the most deplomatic ways.
What kind of brilliant diplomacy YOU offer?
to be pacifist?
That is why I asked the question
History was difficult
So in your opinion the answer lies in pacifism and so to accept the national humiliation or what ?
There is a theological concept, this concept is expressed in the Scofield Bible which is a kind of glorification of the Jews, and that therefore in my question there was nothing insulting .

interesting thought as to what the utopian idea of Bolshevism is a result of persecution of the Jews in the past. I never thought about it before.
#27
Yes history is difficult ~ man’s need to build empire has destroyed many indigenous peoples titular claims ~ just a quick read of the Tanakh proves that very point ~ Egypt – Assyria – Babylon – Rome ~ Byzantine – ISLAMIC – Ottoman – English – French – Spanish – Dutch – American – Russian ~ the list goes on and on ~ in some cases the indigenous peoples were able to re-establish themselves in their own land but in other areas whole nationalities were displaced – dissolved – dissipated – disassociated to such an extent that they can no longer recognize their roots ~ what can be done when clear title cannot be established or when today’s possessors are unwilling to negotiate with the dispossessed.
#28
"do not go with emotions emotions are not arguments
History was difficult
That is why I asked the question
Look I am citizen of Ukraine."

What we are dealing with is that you find it difficult to accept that the Jews can have any special distinction, and so you were asking the question, not to really know the answer, but to try to find a way around it. This is not a question of my emotions, but is a question of my understanding that no matter how many explanations I would give, you would search for some other objection. This results in a waste of time. It would have been better if you explained your true difficulty from the beginning.

You explain now that the Ukrainian people suffered being ruled by non-Ukrainian Bolsheviks, whom you imply were basically Jewish, and ask what "brilliant diplomacy" I offer. I do not offer diplomacy. I offer prayer to God for deliverance. God is in control and could kick out the Bolsheviks in an instant.

If you think that I am being unrealistic, take a look at the history of revolutions, and you will see miserable failure. I include the war of independence of the United States as a failure, because even though they were able to form a new nation (due to humbling themselves and praying to God for help.) there was a long chain of suffering that was put into motion that I believe continues today. They would have been much better off submitting to the king along with Canada, or if they preferred, moving to another country. I was born a citizen of the U.S. and I left my native country to live in South America.
#29
any other proves ?, when the Jews leave the country - the economy falls ?

may be if to compare the Soviet Union , you can say some thing like this. there was the caste of scientists , doctors , teachers and librarians.
But after the collapse of Soviet Union, every thing is totally different.
A lot of people regret for the past , which social-economicly was much more human.
May be Jews are very helpfull when the country is social and not capitalistic ?
Becasue when the country is capitalistic , the Jewish communities unite and succeed and it looks like not fair competition, and actually very little social attitude, I mean to contribute to social changes.
#30
No, the promise by God stands in any situation, that whoever blesses an Israelite receives a blessing, and whoever curses an Israelite receives a cursing. If you see the Jews making things good for themselves and others not getting any benefit, then you can be sure that the Jews are being rejected.

You are making a mistake by thinking that the only two options are socialism and capitalism. If you read the Torah carefully, you will see another option, which is freedom of economic activities within certain limits. One of those limits is that everyone is provided with a piece of land that can never be taken away or even permanently sold. Another limit is that any person in need is allowed to go get food from a field and if he cannot find food in a field, he can go to the priest and get part of the tithes, so he does not die of hunger. This is in addition to charity. This provides for the survival of everyone but does not encourage laziness, yet it also allows freedom to get ahead. with no need for forced quotas. The Soviet Union did it wrong, while perhaps doing some things right. The United States still does it wrong, while doing some things right. It was a mistake for the Ukraine to copy the U.S. when it turned away from socialism. I said that when it was happening but no one listened to my little voice. If you now blame the Jews for problems of capitalism, you are making a horrible compound mistake.

Look to Venezuela for an example of a country that began cursing the Jews at the same time as turning socialist. It is a complete disaster.


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