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The Hebrew Bible says not to go away from the law
#11
(04-25-2013, 03:21 PM)Bluefinger2009 Wrote: For the Torah was given to those who were born of flesh, not to those born of Spirit.
This is not true. Read Zech 7:12; Ezek 35:25-27; Isa 29:24. In fact, the new/renewed covenant in Jer 31:33 is based on the law/Torah.
#12
(08-11-2013, 09:11 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(04-25-2013, 03:21 PM)Bluefinger2009 Wrote: For the Torah was given to those who were born of flesh, not to those born of Spirit.
This is not true. Read Zech 7:12; Ezek 35:25-27; Isa 29:24. In fact, the new/renewed covenant in Jer 31:33 is based on the law/Torah.

How much of this do you keep?
Leviticus 23
23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

26 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the Lord your God.

29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.

31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
#13
(08-13-2013, 09:42 AM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(08-11-2013, 09:11 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(04-25-2013, 03:21 PM)Bluefinger2009 Wrote: For the Torah was given to those who were born of flesh, not to those born of Spirit.
This is not true. Read Zech 7:12; Ezek 35:25-27; Isa 29:24. In fact, the new/renewed covenant in Jer 31:33 is based on the law/Torah.

How much of this do you keep?
Leviticus 23
23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

26 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the Lord your God.

29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.

31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
Yes, I keep the Sabbath, Rosh Hashana, and Yom Kippur. Do you in accordance with Yeshua's words in Matthew 5:17-20, and no manner of work on these days?
#14
A. Bird Wrote:you don't understand the Apostle Paul...

You can make that argument, but when Paul expresses his displeasure with the Torah in such clear terms and so often, what other conclusion can one draw?

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:So what you are saying doesn't seem to line up with the God of all the Messianic stories. God's grace isn't earned. It's received as a gift.

I’m not sure I understand. What doesn’t line up?

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:If the Jews were correct about the Messianic prophecies, then the Messiah was to come before the temple was destroyed (Malachi 3:1.)
Here is what Christians believe about the 3rd temple…

Malachi 3 continues: “he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the L-RD an offering in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the L-RD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.” (v. 3-4) If the Messiah came during the 2nd Temple, where are the offerings?

Why do Christians believe that about the Final Temple when the last nine chapters of Ezekiel clearly detail the physical structure?
#15
Bluefinger2009 Wrote:You told me that 'saved from sin is not a Torah concept.' Then you say that, if a Jew isn't circumcised, 'his eternity is in jeopardy'...as if to say that circumcision is more important than the Torah itself. Is that what you are saying?

G-D tells Avraham, “…every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised…My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant” (Genesis 17:12-14). He may have Torah and mitzvot, but failure to circumcise will result in being “cut off from his people,” a very grave punishment.

I guess it could be said that a circumcised Jew is “in Avraham” in the sense he is part of G-D’s covenant to Avraham. But does this circumvent (rim shot!) the need for actual circumcision? Not at all. As I referenced above, G-D says about the 3rd Temple, “No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into My sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the Children of Israel” (Ezekiel 44:9).

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:Paul doesn't say that the Torah is a curse. Paul says that there is a curse in the Torah for all who disobey it. And if the rabbinical leaders suffered the curse, how is any Jew that follows them able to succeed where they failed? It is evident that, even though the religious leaders of the first century wanted to obey the Law, they still didn't attain what they pressed for.

Your premise is flawed. Leviticus 26 tells us that failure to take the mitzvot seriously will lead to bad news. At the end of the chapter, G-D tells us that if we take to heart what has occurred to us, and pray to G-D, He will take up our cause and forgive our sins. G-D’s message is that even though previous generations may have not done what they were supposed to, we still can.

I think that there is a hidden question you have: if the Torah leaders were doing what they were supposed to, why did the nation still suffer? The answer is that although some of Israel keep Torah and mitzvot diligently, the Children of Israel have a singular purpose and goal, so if the majority of the Jews are not following G-D wholeheartedly, the righteous may not have enough merit to counter, and the nation can be punished.
#16
Quote:G-D tells Avraham, “…every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised…My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant” (Genesis 17:12-14). He may have Torah and mitzvot, but failure to circumcise will result in being “cut off from his people,” a very grave punishment.

So the circumcision is more important than the 613 commands?
Quote:As I referenced above, G-D says about the 3rd Temple, “No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into My sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the Children of Israel” (Ezekiel 44:9).

I'm curious. Can you find any other source in the Law or Prophets that speak about the thirs temple? Or is it just Ezekiel?

Quote:Leviticus 26 tells us that failure to take the mitzvot seriously will lead to bad news. At the end of the chapter, G-D tells us that if we take to heart what has occurred to us, and pray to G-D, He will take up our cause and forgive our sins. G-D’s message is that even though previous generations may have not done what they were supposed to, we still can.

I agree. But that isn't what I am talking about. What I am saying is that, if the fundamental problem was the rabbinical teachings themselves, then how can following them do you any good? Christianity's argument before it even became a primarily Gentile religion was that the elitist rabbinical system was flawed and that it was misleading the majority of Jews. That is the fundamental argument of first century Christianity, as shown in depth in the Gospel according to Matthew as well as Acts and Paul's epistles to the Romans and Galatians. It was not sinfulness that was ruining the Jewish nation back then. It was rabbinical elitism.
Quote:The answer is that although some of Israel keep Torah and mitzvot diligently, the Children of Israel have a singular purpose and goal, so if the majority of the Jews are not following G-D wholeheartedly, the righteous may not have enough merit to counter, and the nation can be punished.

I get that. But that isn't Biblical. Noah was spared for his righteousness. Lot was spared because of his righteousness. As was Jeremiah. But not Moses, ironically. He was actually excluded from the promises, no matter much closer to God he was from the other Israelites. He tried to take the glory that belonged to God out of zeal and use it for his own edification. According to the New Testament, that was also the sin of the Pharisees, who sat on Moses' seat (Mt. 23:1.) The Pharisees were not spared the same curse as their brethren. Also see Matthew 18:18-35 to see why the rabbis suffered with the majority.

If I'm not mistaken, the disicples of Jesus were the only ones spared of the curses.
#17
(08-14-2013, 04:12 PM)benyosef Wrote: You can make that argument, but when Paul expresses his displeasure with the Torah in such clear terms and so often, what other conclusion can one draw?

Understandable. The Torah had a purpose, a mission. If it was foundational to humanity, then it would have been handed down to mankind before they were even dispersed. But God chose Abraham, THEN instituted the circumcision. Which was more important? The circumcision or Abraham's faith? All of humanity or just Abraham and his circumcised seed? The Torah or the circumcision? The temple or the Spirit of God?

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:So what you are saying doesn't seem to line up with the God of all the Messianic stories. God's grace isn't earned. It's received as a gift.

I’m not sure I understand. What doesn’t line up?
Quote:If it depends on our efforts, then neither the Torah or the promises of Abraham are gifts from God but rather scientific results of our obedience. The Torah was intended for righteousness to spread and bless the earth as well as Abraham's promises. But i has been turned into a justification of elitism. That is not what it was intended for.


Bluefinger2009 Wrote:If the Jews were correct about the Messianic prophecies, then the Messiah was to come before the temple was destroyed (Malachi 3:1.)
Here is what Christians believe about the 3rd temple…

Malachi 3 continues: “he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the L-RD an offering in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the L-RD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.” (v. 3-4) If the Messiah came during the 2nd Temple, where are the offerings?

Why do Christians believe that about the Final Temple when the last nine chapters of Ezekiel clearly detail the physical structure?

Clearly Ezekiel is the only one who knew about it. If the knowledge of God spreads to all the earth, what need is there for more offerings? The purified Levites are those that have faith in Christ, the minister of the New Covenant. See Revelation 20:6, 1:6 and 5:10. The physical structure isn't as important as the Spirit that inhabits it. If that Spirit is poured out on all flesh, as Joel 2:28 shows. If God's Spirit inhabits His people, then is not His people the structure and their righteous deeds and prayers offerings unto God?

"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:19-22 ESV)
#18
(08-14-2013, 04:12 PM)benyosef Wrote:
A. Bird Wrote:you don't understand the Apostle Paul...

You can make that argument, but when Paul expresses his displeasure with the Torah in such clear terms and so often, what other conclusion can one draw?

Do you read "displeasure with the Torah" in these words of the apostle Paul:

-For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.
-However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
-Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.?

I don't.

With regards to his words to the Galatians,
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
This was written to gentile believers of our Lord and Saviour Y'shua.
Is it not also held by non-christian Judaism that gentiles are not under obligation to follow the law?
Whatever the case my be, I don't think the apostle Paul's words were ment to invalidate the Word of our Lord Y'shua, he merely pointed to the fact that salvation and justification are not in the Law, but in Messiah. In doing so he, the apostle Paul, actualy gave the Law its rightful place, even saying that the law was our schoolmaster but the fulfillment of it is Messiah.
#19
(08-13-2013, 10:15 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Yes, I keep the Sabbath, Rosh Hashana, and Yom Kippur. Do you in accordance with Yeshua's words in Matthew 5:17-20, and no manner of work on these days?

Big deal, those are easy. You don't keep everything. And your excuse is 'big deal, no Temple no problem.'
#20
(08-13-2013, 10:15 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Yes, I keep the Sabbath, Rosh Hashana, and Yom Kippur. Do you in accordance with Yeshua's words in Matthew 5:17-20, and no manner of work on these days?

The Sabbath is easy to keep, 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

Do you offer an offering made by fire?

What about on Yom Kippur? and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord. Do you do that?


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