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The Hebrew Bible says not to go away from the law
#21
(08-17-2013, 08:14 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(08-13-2013, 10:15 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Yes, I keep the Sabbath, Rosh Hashana, and Yom Kippur. Do you in accordance with Yeshua's words in Matthew 5:17-20, and no manner of work on these days?

The Sabbath is easy to keep, 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

Do you offer an offering made by fire?

What about on Yom Kippur? and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord. Do you do that?
Why don't you answer my question first MJ, since I answered your last reply? Do you keep the same days since Yeshua said to keep them in Mat 5:17-20?
#22
Bluefinger2009 Wrote:So the circumcision is more important than the 613 commands?

G-D chose Avraham to be uniquely His, and He gave him and his descendants circumcision as a sign of this everlasting covenant. It is because of the magnitude of this mitzvah that it carries the grave consequence of being cut off for failure to fulfill it. Thus, to a certain extent, it is more important than other mitzvot.

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:Can you find any other source…that speak about the thirs temple? Or is it just Ezekiel?

While speaking of the End of Days, there are a few references to a Temple, such as Isaiah 56 and 66, but only Ezekiel goes into such detail.

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:…if the fundamental problem was the rabbinical teachings themselves, then how can following them do you any good? Christianity's argument [was that it] was not sinfulness that was ruining the Jewish nation [but] rabbinical elitism.

I understand the argument, and that is why I brought Leviticus 26, because the claims of Christendom do not reflect what G-D actually says. G-D never tells us to believe in or accept the Messiah or else, but He does tell us in no uncertain terms that our well-being depends solely on keeping the mitzvot.
The problem was not rabbinic enactments, but the influence of secular, G-Dless cultures surrounding the Jews that adversely affected them, leading to the fall of the Temple.

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:I get that. But that isn't Biblical…The Pharisees were not spared the same curse as their brethren. Also see Matthew 18:18-35 to see why the rabbis suffered with the majority. If I'm not mistaken, the disicples of Jesus were the only ones spared of the curses.

It is, in fact, Biblical. Many times the Torah speaks of the Nation of Israel in the singular (e.g. Exodus 20’s “Decalogue”), alluding to this national singularity. And we see that despite all the Jews have gone through, the only Jews who identify as Jews are those whose ancestors had rejected outside influences. Only recently has this oddity of history been altered, as Christians decided to take Jewish names and practices in order to attract more Jews to the cross. Think about it: the disciples’ grandchildren were Jewish or not? Where are the descendants of the followers of the Baals? Why did the Jerusalem church become Christianity and not the main branch of Judaism?
Answer: Because G-D promised that those who cling to His mitzvot will always be around.
#23
Bluefinger2009 Wrote:If [the Torah] was foundational to humanity, then it would have been handed down to mankind before they were even dispersed. But God chose Abraham, THEN instituted the circumcision. Which was more important? The circumcision or Abraham's faith?...

The world as a whole was given the Noahide Laws. The Jews, as priests to the world, were given the full Torah to be a light to the nations. It was because of Avraham’s listening to G-D, and not merely believing in G-D (Genesis 26:5), that he and his descendants were chosen.

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:If it depends on our efforts, then neither the Torah or the promises of Abraham are gifts from God but rather scientific results of our obedience…

The answer is that it’s not just a scientific “if…then…” equation, for if it were, actions by rote would receive blessing. Yet we know this is not the case, for Isaiah 58 chides the people for outward acts of fasting coupled with exploitation and strife. Fasting can be spiritually beneficial, yet if it is coupled with wickedness then it is like nothing and revulsion before G-D; “filthy rags,” to borrow a phrase. That is not what G-D asks for; rather that you should tend to the widow and orphan, practice righteousness and mercy, etc.

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:If the knowledge of God spreads to all the earth, what need is there for more offerings?

Offerings are brought either for specific occasions (like the holidays and New Moons, mentioned explicitly in regards to the End of Days in Isaiah 66), to achieve closeness with G-D (like a Peace-offering), or for unintentional sins (which may still be possible in the future, as we are human, also mentioned explicitly in Ezekiel 43).
Note: never are we commanded to bring offerings for intentional sins.

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:If that Spirit is poured out on all flesh, as Joel 2:28 shows. If God's Spirit inhabits His people, then is not His people the structure and their righteous deeds and prayers offerings unto God?

G-D’s spirit is His dynamic presence which, when resting on a person, gives him special qualities, like understanding (Genesis 41:38, Exodus 31:3), prophecy (Numbers 11:25, 24:2), or strength (Judges 14 and 15).

There will be a physical Temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 40-48), there will be many prophets (Joel 2), there will be offerings (Ezekiel 43), and there will be prayers (Isaiah 56).
#24
A. Bird Wrote:Do you read "displeasure with the Torah" in these words of the apostle Paul…? I don’t. With regards to his words to the Galatians, This was written to gentile believers…Is it not also held by non-christian Judaism that gentiles are not under obligation to follow the law? Whatever the case my be, I don't think the apostle Paul's words were ment to invalidate the Word of our Lord Y'shua, he merely pointed to the fact that salvation and justification are not in the Law, but in Messiah. In doing so he…actualy gave the Law its rightful place, even saying that the law was our schoolmaster but the fulfillment of it is Messiah.

Correct: non-Jews were never obligated to follow the Torah. If Paul’s message was only meant for a select group of people, why was it included in the canon? Surely he meant it for everybody who wishes to accept the crucified mortal as a savior, not just non-Jewish Galatians.

Your argument would be easier to accept had Paul not preached a similar message elsewhere: “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming – not the realities themselves” (hb 10:1).

Paul’s displeasure with the Torah is evident from his manipulation of the text. For example, he “quotes” Jeremiah 31 as saying, “they did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord” (hb 8:9, NIV-UK). Yet when we open up NIV-UK’s Jeremiah 31:32, it reads, “they broke My covenant, though I was a husband to them, declares the L-RD.” He literally reversed the meaning of the text! Why do that if what he’s selling is truly G-D’s plan?
#25
Paul speaks about how the Torah is a curse (Gl 3:10, 13). He’s clearly not just talking to the Galatians, but to anybody who wishes to listen. Because he “quotes” verses, he tries to demonstrate that his view is G-D's eternal words, not just his ideas for a group in Galatia.

But is the Torah really a curse? If it is, why would Jeremiah 31 tell us that the Torah will be written on our innermost parts because of this new covenant (v. 33)? Why would Ezekiel tell us that the Jews will be keeping the Torah in the Messianic Age (37:24)? Why would David speak so highly of it (Psalm 119)?

Is it a “fact” that one cannot be saved via Torah? If so, why does the Torah promise good things for those who keep the mitzvot:

“These are the commands, decrees and laws HaShem your G-D directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, so that you, your children and their children after them may fear HaShem your G-D as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy long life.” (Deuteronomy 6:1-2)

“For I command you today to love HaShem, your G-D, to walk in obedience to Him, and to keep His commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and HaShem your G-D will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.” (30:16)

“Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law. They are not just idle words for you – they are your life. By them you will live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.” (32:46-47)

Clearly the Torah brings blessings and good things. Paul ignores these verses and tells everyone that all they need to do is believe in the Messiah, who was the fulfillment of the Law. Such a message is found nowhere in Torah.
#26
A. Bird Wrote:Do you read "displeasure with the Torah" in these words of the apostle Paul…? I don’t. With regards to his words to the Galatians, This was written to gentile believers…Is it not also held by non-christian Judaism that gentiles are not under obligation to follow the law? Whatever the case my be, I don't think the apostle Paul's words were ment to invalidate the Word of our Lord Y'shua, he merely pointed to the fact that salvation and justification are not in the Law, but in Messiah. In doing so he…actualy gave the Law its rightful place, even saying that the law was our schoolmaster but the fulfillment of it is Messiah.

(09-09-2013, 04:56 PM)benyosef Wrote: Correct: non-Jews were never obligated to follow the Torah. If Paul’s message was only meant for a select group of people, why was it included in the canon? Surely he meant it for everybody who wishes to accept the crucified mortal as a savior, not just non-Jewish Galatians.
It is obvious that the apostle Paul's message (I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.) was for a select group of people, why would he say this to people who are allready circumcised?
This is difficult for many to understand because of their failure to appreciate the astonishing situation of the early Church: God was pouring out His Holy Spirit even on Gentiles! I think the apostle Paul's teaching is correct, because if God did not even hold back His Spirit from the uncircumcised what would circumcision still profit them?

(09-09-2013, 04:56 PM)benyosef Wrote: Your argument would be easier to accept had Paul not preached a similar message elsewhere: “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming – not the realities themselves” (hb 10:1).
This is similar to: the law was our schoolmaster, something the apostle Paul wrote to the Galatians. I can understand that, for those who spend their lives trying to give substance to shadows, this is very hard to take .

(09-09-2013, 04:56 PM)benyosef Wrote: Paul’s displeasure with the Torah is evident from his manipulation of the text. For example, he “quotes” Jeremiah 31 as saying, “they did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord” (hb 8:9, NIV-UK). Yet when we open up NIV-UK’s Jeremiah 31:32, it reads, “they broke My covenant, though I was a husband to them, declares the L-RD.” He literally reversed the meaning of the text! Why do that if what he’s selling is truly G-D’s plan?
The apostle Paul quoted the Septuagint, or the Syriac, both of which translates that verse the way he quoted it.
#27
(09-09-2013, 05:02 PM)benyosef Wrote: Paul speaks about how the Torah is a curse (Gl 3:10, 13). He’s clearly not just talking to the Galatians, but to anybody who wishes to listen. Because he “quotes” verses, he tries to demonstrate that his view is G-D's eternal words, not just his ideas for a group in Galatia.

But is the Torah really a curse? If it is, why would Jeremiah 31 tell us that the Torah will be written on our innermost parts because of this new covenant (v. 33)? Why would Ezekiel tell us that the Jews will be keeping the Torah in the Messianic Age (37:24)? Why would David speak so highly of it (Psalm 119)?

Is it a “fact” that one cannot be saved via Torah? If so, why does the Torah promise good things for those who keep the mitzvot:

“These are the commands, decrees and laws HaShem your G-D directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, so that you, your children and their children after them may fear HaShem your G-D as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy long life.” (Deuteronomy 6:1-2)

“For I command you today to love HaShem, your G-D, to walk in obedience to Him, and to keep His commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and HaShem your G-D will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.” (30:16)

“Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law. They are not just idle words for you – they are your life. By them you will live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.” (32:46-47)

Clearly the Torah brings blessings and good things. Paul ignores these verses and tells everyone that all they need to do is believe in the Messiah, who was the fulfillment of the Law. Such a message is found nowhere in Torah.

Once more; you cleary don't understand the apostle Paul.
The Torah has become a curse to you, because you use it to refuse Salvation, to refuse Y'shua. But that very same Torah is the schoolmaster that lead me to Salvation, to Y'shua. That very same Torah gives testimony of Y'shua.
That is also why I told your friend Nachshon that I understand that there is no life, no resurrection and no Spirit in his Tanakh while mine is full of life, resurrection and Spirit.
See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
#28
(09-11-2013, 04:10 AM)A. Bird Wrote:
(09-09-2013, 05:02 PM)benyosef Wrote: Paul speaks about how the Torah is a curse (Gl 3:10, 13). He’s clearly not just talking to the Galatians, but to anybody who wishes to listen. Because he “quotes” verses, he tries to demonstrate that his view is G-D's eternal words, not just his ideas for a group in Galatia.

But is the Torah really a curse? If it is, why would Jeremiah 31 tell us that the Torah will be written on our innermost parts because of this new covenant (v. 33)? Why would Ezekiel tell us that the Jews will be keeping the Torah in the Messianic Age (37:24)? Why would David speak so highly of it (Psalm 119)?

Is it a “fact” that one cannot be saved via Torah? If so, why does the Torah promise good things for those who keep the mitzvot:

“These are the commands, decrees and laws HaShem your G-D directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, so that you, your children and their children after them may fear HaShem your G-D as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy long life.” (Deuteronomy 6:1-2)

“For I command you today to love HaShem, your G-D, to walk in obedience to Him, and to keep His commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and HaShem your G-D will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.” (30:16)

“Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law. They are not just idle words for you – they are your life. By them you will live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.” (32:46-47)

Clearly the Torah brings blessings and good things. Paul ignores these verses and tells everyone that all they need to do is believe in the Messiah, who was the fulfillment of the Law. Such a message is found nowhere in Torah.

Once more; you cleary don't understand the apostle Paul.
The Torah has become a curse to you, because you use it to refuse Salvation, to refuse Y'shua. But that very same Torah is the schoolmaster that lead me to Salvation, to Y'shua. That very same Torah gives testimony of Y'shua.
That is also why I told your friend Nachshon that I understand that there is no life, no resurrection and no Spirit in his Tanakh while mine is full of life, resurrection and Spirit.
See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
Ha-ha...Prov 6:23, 13:14. You didn't finish the verse in Deut 30:19, "choose life". Neh 9:29, Prov 7:2, Psalm 199:77, show from Torah to Tanakh that there is life in the Torah.

The curses in Torah only occur when it is not followed, not that the Torah is a curse. Paul got it wrong really bad.
#29
(09-11-2013, 03:54 AM)A. Bird Wrote:
(09-09-2013, 04:56 PM)benyosef Wrote: Paul’s displeasure with the Torah is evident from his manipulation of the text. For example, he “quotes” Jeremiah 31 as saying, “they did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord” (hb 8:9, NIV-UK). Yet when we open up NIV-UK’s Jeremiah 31:32, it reads, “they broke My covenant, though I was a husband to them, declares the L-RD.” He literally reversed the meaning of the text! Why do that if what he’s selling is truly G-D’s plan?
The apostle Paul quoted the Septuagint, or the Syriac, both of which translates that verse the way he quoted it.
How do you know? Is this in the NT somewhere?
#30
(02-26-2013, 01:48 PM)TheProcess Wrote: The Hebrew Bible (e.g. Deut. 13) says not to go away from the Torah commands.

The Christian religion has gone away from the Torah commands.

Is that not just an obvious contradiction of religious teaching?

I'm new to this forum (and didn't have time to read all other replies)...But just wanted to point out briefly that Abraham served a nonkosher meal in Gen 18:7,8 and also was counted as righteous before circumcism based on his faith.

Thus Abraham did not follow Torah commands either... So has Father Abraham contradicted the Torah too????
The law was a shadow of things to come - Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the law. We no longer need to follow the shadow because the real representatoin appeared in Jesus.


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