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The Hebrew Bible says not to go away from the law
#31
(09-16-2013, 08:30 AM)Tricia73 Wrote:
(02-26-2013, 01:48 PM)TheProcess Wrote: The Hebrew Bible (e.g. Deut. 13) says not to go away from the Torah commands.

The Christian religion has gone away from the Torah commands.

Is that not just an obvious contradiction of religious teaching?

I'm new to this forum (and didn't have time to read all other replies)...But just wanted to point out briefly that Abraham served a nonkosher meal in Gen 18:7,8 and also was counted as righteous before circumcism based on his faith.

Thus Abraham did not follow Torah commands either... So has Father Abraham contradicted the Torah too????
The law was a shadow of things to come - Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the law. We no longer need to follow the shadow because the real representatoin appeared in Jesus.

Hallo Tricia, welcome, nice of you to join us.

I just want to point out to you that even in following the substance (which is our Lord) one inevitably follows the shadow (which is the Law).
A shadow does not move separately from the body.

Torah is good, it's very good, it is confirmation of our Lord Y'shua.
Salvation, however, is in Messiah as much as nutrients are in bread and not in it's shadow.

Consider our Lord's words:
"How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
and also
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
#32
(02-26-2013, 01:48 PM)TheProcess Wrote: The Hebrew Bible (e.g. Deut. 13) says not to go away from the Torah commands.

The Christian religion has gone away from the Torah commands.

Is that not just an obvious contradiction of religious teaching?

I'm new to this forum (and didn't have time to read all other replies)...But just wanted to point out briefly that Abraham served a nonkosher meal in Gen 18:7,8 and also was counted as righteous before circumcism based on his faith.

Thus Abraham did not follow Torah commands either... So has Father Abraham contradicted the Torah too????
The law was a shadow of things to come - Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the law. We no longer need to follow the shadow because the real representatoin appeared in Jesus.
#33
(09-17-2013, 06:12 AM)Tricia73 Wrote:
(02-26-2013, 01:48 PM)TheProcess Wrote: The Hebrew Bible (e.g. Deut. 13) says not to go away from the Torah commands.

The Christian religion has gone away from the Torah commands.

Is that not just an obvious contradiction of religious teaching?

I'm new to this forum (and didn't have time to read all other replies)...But just wanted to point out briefly that Abraham served a nonkosher meal in Gen 18:7,8 and also was counted as righteous before circumcism based on his faith.

Thus Abraham did not follow Torah commands either... So has Father Abraham contradicted the Torah too????
The law was a shadow of things to come - Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the law. We no longer need to follow the shadow because the real representatoin appeared in Jesus.
Then why does JC say that the law applies until heaven and earth disappear, which hasn't happened yet? Everything has not been fulfilled.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled
#34
(09-17-2013, 10:05 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(09-17-2013, 06:12 AM)Tricia73 Wrote:
(02-26-2013, 01:48 PM)TheProcess Wrote: The Hebrew Bible (e.g. Deut. 13) says not to go away from the Torah commands.

The Christian religion has gone away from the Torah commands.

Is that not just an obvious contradiction of religious teaching?

I'm new to this forum (and didn't have time to read all other replies)...But just wanted to point out briefly that Abraham served a nonkosher meal in Gen 18:7,8 and also was counted as righteous before circumcism based on his faith.

Thus Abraham did not follow Torah commands either... So has Father Abraham contradicted the Torah too????
The law was a shadow of things to come - Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the law. We no longer need to follow the shadow because the real representatoin appeared in Jesus.
Then why does JC say that the law applies until heaven and earth disappear, which hasn't happened yet? Everything has not been fulfilled.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

Everything has been fulfilled in our Lord Y'shua.
If you find yourself outside of Messiah, you can see very little of the fulfillment, the Law stays for such a person.

Such a person will be judged by the word of our Lord.

The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.

But the accusation will come from elsewhere.

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?

Repent, while there is still time, He is your Messiah, He came for you, He is the great King, taste and see that the Lord is good.
#35
(09-17-2013, 10:05 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(09-17-2013, 06:12 AM)Tricia73 Wrote:
(02-26-2013, 01:48 PM)TheProcess Wrote: The Hebrew Bible (e.g. Deut. 13) says not to go away from the Torah commands.

The Christian religion has gone away from the Torah commands.

Is that not just an obvious contradiction of religious teaching?

I'm new to this forum (and didn't have time to read all other replies)...But just wanted to point out briefly that Abraham served a nonkosher meal in Gen 18:7,8 and also was counted as righteous before circumcism based on his faith.

Thus Abraham did not follow Torah commands either... So has Father Abraham contradicted the Torah too????
The law was a shadow of things to come - Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the law. We no longer need to follow the shadow because the real representatoin appeared in Jesus.
Then why does JC say that the law applies until heaven and earth disappear, which hasn't happened yet? Everything has not been fulfilled.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

Mat 5:18 - Jesus fulfilled the law for us (eg till all be fulfilled, Jesus did). The law is perfect but we as Sons of Adam inherited a sinful human nature in our spirit. Jesus paid for our sins and His righteousness is IMPUTED to us when we accept what HE did on the cross (fulfilling the law). Abraham was counted as righteous before the law. the law is there to show us how sinful we are and are in need of a savior.

Also, there are many prophecies still to be fulfilled re: end times and the 1000 year Millenial reign of Jesus on earth. (see Daniel, Revelation, etc). The law is in place for nonbelievers (including nonbelieving Jews) - and they can go to heaven on their own if they NEVER EVER sinned....but the only ONE who did that was Jesus so the nonbelievers have to accept what he did because they fail under the perfect law that they are trying to get in under.

Hope I explained this well...let me know if you want clarification
#36
(09-20-2013, 12:01 PM)Tricia73 Wrote:
(09-17-2013, 10:05 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(09-17-2013, 06:12 AM)Tricia73 Wrote:
(02-26-2013, 01:48 PM)TheProcess Wrote: The Hebrew Bible (e.g. Deut. 13) says not to go away from the Torah commands.

The Christian religion has gone away from the Torah commands.

Is that not just an obvious contradiction of religious teaching?

I'm new to this forum (and didn't have time to read all other replies)...But just wanted to point out briefly that Abraham served a nonkosher meal in Gen 18:7,8 and also was counted as righteous before circumcism based on his faith.

Thus Abraham did not follow Torah commands either... So has Father Abraham contradicted the Torah too????
The law was a shadow of things to come - Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the law. We no longer need to follow the shadow because the real representatoin appeared in Jesus.
Then why does JC say that the law applies until heaven and earth disappear, which hasn't happened yet? Everything has not been fulfilled.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

Mat 5:18 - Jesus fulfilled the law for us (eg till all be fulfilled, Jesus did). The law is perfect but we as Sons of Adam inherited a sinful human nature in our spirit. Jesus paid for our sins and His righteousness is IMPUTED to us when we accept what HE did on the cross (fulfilling the law). Abraham was counted as righteous before the law. the law is there to show us how sinful we are and are in need of a savior.

Also, there are many prophecies still to be fulfilled re: end times and the 1000 year Millenial reign of Jesus on earth. (see Daniel, Revelation, etc). The law is in place for nonbelievers (including nonbelieving Jews) - and they can go to heaven on their own if they NEVER EVER sinned....but the only ONE who did that was Jesus so the nonbelievers have to accept what he did because they fail under the perfect law that they are trying to get in under.

Hope I explained this well...let me know if you want clarification
No, I'm sorry your explanation doesn't make sense. JC said all as not been fulfilled as heaven and earth have not passed away. The law/Torah still applies.
#37
Jesus fulfilled (showed completely the true meaning of) the law and perfectly obeyed the law in deed and in heart. And, for those who accepted his fulfillment, they are imputed as righteous. The Old Testament laws all point to Jesus and Jesus fulfilled these Scriptures. And, He not only obeyed the law outwardly but also inwardly ((eg if you hate in your heart, you are a murderer, etc - showing the law is really all about perfect love)).

The nonbelievers have not accepted Jesus's provision, so they are still required to meet the law to go to heaven (but all have sinned so they will not get to heaven without Jesus).

At the end of the Millenium when there is a new heaven and earth, everyone who accepted Jesus will be glorified, with all sin gone, etc. At that point, there will be no need for the law because no people with a sin nature will be around (as all nonbelievers will unfortunately be in hell).

So not one jot or tittle of the law has passed away; rather Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law. But until all nonbelievers are judged, the law is there for them. Also, I'll point out that there are other things in the Torah that have not yet been fulfilled. For example, the feasts are shadows of Jesus, etc. Jesus with His death burial and resurrection fulfilled the first three feasts. The church fulfilled the Pentacost feast, but the remaining feasts are still future, eg Tabernacles shadows the Millenial reign, etc. So these jots are still left to reach fulfillment.
#38
Tricia73, I'm confused. If what you are saying is true, i.e. that in the future there will be no need for the law, why does Ezekiel (37:24) tell us that in the Messianic Age all Jews will be keeping the Law?
#39
(09-24-2013, 05:18 AM)Tricia73 Wrote: Jesus fulfilled (showed completely the true meaning of) the law and perfectly obeyed the law in deed and in heart. And, for those who accepted his fulfillment, they are imputed as righteous. The Old Testament laws all point to Jesus and Jesus fulfilled these Scriptures. And, He not only obeyed the law outwardly but also inwardly ((eg if you hate in your heart, you are a murderer, etc - showing the law is really all about perfect love)).

The nonbelievers have not accepted Jesus's provision, so they are still required to meet the law to go to heaven (but all have sinned so they will not get to heaven without Jesus).

At the end of the Millenium when there is a new heaven and earth, everyone who accepted Jesus will be glorified, with all sin gone, etc. At that point, there will be no need for the law because no people with a sin nature will be around (as all nonbelievers will unfortunately be in hell).

So not one jot or tittle of the law has passed away; rather Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law. But until all nonbelievers are judged, the law is there for them. Also, I'll point out that there are other things in the Torah that have not yet been fulfilled. For example, the feasts are shadows of Jesus, etc. Jesus with His death burial and resurrection fulfilled the first three feasts. The church fulfilled the Pentacost feast, but the remaining feasts are still future, eg Tabernacles shadows the Millenial reign, etc. So these jots are still left to reach fulfillment.
Matthew 5:18 says nothing will disappear from the law until all is finished, and when heaven and earth disappear. This will never happen, so Torah always applies.
#40
(02-26-2013, 01:48 PM)TheProcess Wrote: The Hebrew Bible (e.g. Deut. 13) says not to go away from the Torah commands.

The Christian religion has gone away from the Torah commands.

Is that not just an obvious contradiction of religious teaching?


1. You need to understand why the Torah was given in the first place.
2. A Christian is just a final outworking of the Torah.

1. Sin and death entered the world and G-d wanted to fix the problem by punishing sin yet being judge of the universe he wants to forgive yet remain just. He called a people by which he would glorify Himself. Abraham was called freely without Torah. The Hebrews were released form Egypt without Torah. Grace came first then later gave Torah to set His people apart.
The called people disobeyed and failed in the calling so they needed to be punished. The stroke was due. Yet G-d in His mercy sent His servant - His Son, Jesus to die in place of His people to whom the stroke was due. This act of kindness came at the appointed time and dealt with Adam & Eve's sin too. G-d remaining Just punished His Son in order to forgive yet remain just.
The Jews have utterly and hopelessly misunderstood their calling.


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