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Apostle Paul is a Jew
#11
MessianicJew, it seems you’re focusing on one or two small sections of Ezk 18 and forgetting the rest, because I do not know what your point is or how you got there. The summary of the chapter is that one man cannot die for the sins of another. If a man does well, he will live; if he does wickedly, he will die for his sins. If the wicked repents and does well, his wickedness will no longer be remembered against him because he turned from his wickedness; on the other hand, should a righteous man choose to do wicked, his past righteousness will not protect him from his current wickedness, for only turning from his wickedness will bring him back to righteousness.

MessianicJew Wrote:Anyone with either a Father or Mother…tracing back to any of the children born to Jacob…are Israelites…As Boaz married Ruth a Moabite, and...she was [never] written being called a Jew. In the Tanach the word Jew has been written as applied to the tribe of Judah, the land of Judea and the language and the tribe of Benjamin only. However, it is not written if you're a Gentile that you're a Jew through conversion. Because this is never written in the Tanach from God to a Prophet.

>Numbers 1:18 says tribal lineage follows the father, while Ezra 10:2-3 shows Jewishness, not tribal identity, follows the mother.
>We know non-Jews can convert, or “enter the congregation,” from Deuteronomy 23.
>If Ruth wasn’t ultimately Jewish, why would the elders bless her as they did? How did she become the ancestor of the future Messiah?
>The term "Jew" appears in the KJV primarily after the Northern Kingdom was exiled, yet we can infer the term applies, not only to Judah and Benjamin, but to Levi as well, for it would not make sense for Haman to hate the Jews, to the exclusion of the priestly class. Nowadays, and I don't know exactly when this started, the term came to include even Jews from the lost tribes.

Rm 10:9 says a lot about Christianity. Paul says the only way to “salvation” is to believe an event which no one witnessed actually occurred or suffer the consequences of 2 Thes and burn forever. By contrast, we Jews, the entire nation, were present when G-D gave us the Torah so that we will know (not merely believe, but know as fact) that there is no G-D but Him (Deut 4:35, 39), and so we are to keep G-D’s Laws so that it will be well with us and that we may live (ibid. 40).

Back to Paul: When someone's actions or ideals are so far removed from Pharisaic teachings, whoever holds them cannot be seriously considered a Pharisee (though there is always repentance). Paul, by his condoning the murder of Christians and working for a Sadducean puppet of Rome, cannot be considered a Pharisee—though that does not detract from any Jewish lineage he may have.
#12
(03-24-2013, 04:33 PM)Yetzirah231 Wrote: Messianic Jew,

I think Paul is Jewish, but by chosing another faith it became somewhat difficult if he became an idol-worshipper or not.
And as some Messianic Jews believe that Judaism is through the fathers linuage, than Paul was a Roman according to some Messianic rabbi's and not a Jew.
You know these explanations.
Now it's time for Pesach, so until a few weeks or so, see you later.

Apostle Paul didn't truly choose another faith, he still has faith in the God of Israel. He just believed that the God of Israel sent a High Priest to forgive men of their sins in his time and for all time for generations in the future even those at the time Noah was preparing the Arc. Apostle Paul gave thanks to the God of Israel and is not a idol worshiper. Apostle Paul never replaced the God of Israel with any other God nor god nor Gods nor gods.

I've heard many explanations, true.

And I hope your Pesach went well. See you later too.
#13
(03-24-2013, 10:50 PM)benyosef Wrote: >Numbers 1:18 says tribal lineage follows the father, while Ezra 10:2-3 shows Jewishness, not tribal identity, follows the mother.
>We know non-Jews can convert, or “enter the congregation,” from Deuteronomy 23.

Numbers 1:18 and Ezra 10 2-3 shows that you need both a Father and Mother of Israel. Not just one or the other. In Deuteronomy your are prohibited to marry a non Jew whether you are a Male or Female.

Jewishness is not written and is a miss teaching.

Deuteronomy 23 doesn't say they can be called a Jew either.

(03-24-2013, 10:50 PM)benyosef Wrote: >If Ruth wasn’t ultimately Jewish, why would the elders bless her as they did?

Because they accepted her belief in the God of Israel, but not all Israel were legal according to the law.

(03-24-2013, 10:50 PM)benyosef Wrote: How did she become the ancestor of the future Messiah?

Interesting isn't it? Jesse would also not be a Jew either if you need a Jewish Mother.
#14
(03-24-2013, 10:50 PM)benyosef Wrote: >The term "Jew" appears in the KJV primarily after the Northern Kingdom was exiled, yet we can infer the term applies, not only to Judah and Benjamin, but to Levi as well, for it would not make sense for Haman to hate the Jews, to the exclusion of the priestly class. Nowadays, and I don't know exactly when this started, the term came to include even Jews from the lost tribes.

I would agree here.

(03-24-2013, 10:50 PM)benyosef Wrote: Rm 10:9 says a lot about Christianity. Paul says the only way to “salvation” is to believe an event which no one witnessed actually occurred or suffer the consequences of 2 Thes and burn forever. By contrast, we Jews, the entire nation, were present when G-D gave us the Torah so that we will know (not merely believe, but know as fact) that there is no G-D but Him (Deut 4:35, 39), and so we are to keep G-D’s Laws so that it will be well with us and that we may live (ibid. 40).

It is written that if all the miracles Jesus ever did were written all the books in the world could not contain them! There were witnesses over and over again. The very life of Christ proclaimed his anointing.

You weren't present when God gave the Torah so you do believe. You weren't present when the event of Moses parting the reed sea was written to have taken place either, so you believe. And it is not a fact as you assert, but a belief.

You nor your ancestors have kept Gods' law with any obedience that is out of a whole heart, you aren't physically well but physically sick and you won't live unless you believe Romans 10:9. On your judgment you won't have an excuse of being ignorant to this verse either.

(03-24-2013, 10:50 PM)benyosef Wrote: Back to Paul: When someone's actions or ideals are so far removed from Pharisaic teachings, whoever holds them cannot be seriously considered a Pharisee (though there is always repentance). Paul, by his condoning the murder of Christians and working for a Sadducean puppet of Rome, cannot be considered a Pharisee—though that does not detract from any Jewish lineage he may have.

Interesting, you should talk to the Ultra Orthodox in Israel as they say they will crucify Christians too at some point. That is murder. I've seen them admit it on Youtube.
#15
MessianicJew Wrote:Num 1:18 and Ezra 10 2-3 shows that you need both a Father and Mother of Israel. Not just one or the other. In Deut your are prohibited to marry a non Jew whether you are a Male or Female. Jewishness is not written and is a miss teaching. Deut 23 doesn't say they can be called a Jew either.

“Jewishness” may not be written, but is heavily implied by Ezra 10, which shows that having a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother gives you non-Jewish children. Otherwise, why would the returnees have to send away the children, too? And then, once we know the mother is Jewish, we use the father to determine to which tribe the child belongs, based on Num 1:18 (which, incidentally, says nothing about the mother’s tribe).

Deut 23 doesn’t literally say things like “an Egyptian may be a Jew,” but uses an alternate description, i.e. may enter the congregation. Alternate descriptions for being Jewish are found several times in Torah. Another example is when G-D tells us that no native or foreign-born may consume leaven on Passover (Ex. 12:19). The entire chapter is to be spoken to Israel and Israel only, and nowhere are non-Jews bidden to observe Jewish holidays (not until the real Messiah arrives), so this “foreign-born” must be a convert to Judaism, who, as a Jew, is bound by the same laws as Jews and has the same privileges as Jews, including being able to marry a Jew.
#16
MessianicJew Wrote:…if all the miracles Jesus ever did were written all the books in the world could not contain them!...You weren't present when God gave the Torah…You weren't present when the event of Moses parting the reed sea…it is not a fact as you assert, but a belief.

As impressive or numerous as miracles may be, they are worthless is determining the validity of a prophet. The Torah says that false prophets will be able to perform miraculous signs (Deut 13:1-2), and even your guy tells his followers to beware (Mt 24:24).

I think you misunderstood my point. In Rm 10:9 Paul tells us to believe that G-D raised Jesus from the dead, yet no one is ever recorded as having actually seen his alleged ascension. John’s account goes so far as to have Mary think the body was stolen, seemingly indicating she had no idea Jesus was supposed to rise from the dead. If it was so important for salvation, why didn’t anyone see it? Additionally, since Jesus said his stay in the earth and rising from the dead would be a sign to the generation, why didn’t he appear to anybody who could verify it? He only appeared to the disciples and 500 unnamed, unidentified people. Not the Jews? Not the Sanhedrin? Why didn’t he show himself to the generation he said would be given this as the only sign (Mt 12:38-40)?

By contrast, the Torah tells us the entire Jewish nation was present at Sinai when G-D spoke to us from amidst the flame, where we saw no image but heard only a voice, so that we shall know (not believe, but know, for that is what is written) there is no one but He. G-D never says salvation is hinged on whether or not we believe something happened; rather, He says over and over that the only way for things to go well with us and our children is by keeping the commandments.

MessianicJew Wrote:you should talk to the Ultra Orthodox in Israel as they say they will crucify Christians too at some point. That is murder. I've seen them admit it on Youtube.

I am “Ultra Orthodox” and have spoken to many “Ultra Orthodox” Jews in Israel, America, and Canada, and not one of them ever spoke of or condoned killing anyone who was not already attempting to kill them. These “ultras” you saw on YouTube: How do you know it wasn’t staged? How do you know they are “ultra Orthodox?” If indeed they said what you say they did, then yes, we can question their Pharisee connection (as I just did). They may be Jewish, but may not have been educated as Pharisees. Paul, too, may have been born Jewish, but it is clear from his condoning wanton murder and associating with Sadduceean Roman puppets that he was devoid of Pharisaic thought.
#17
(04-11-2013, 01:52 PM)benyosef Wrote: “Jewishness” may not be written, but is heavily implied by Ezra 10, which shows that having a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother gives you non-Jewish children.

So then King David is not Jewish since Boaz married Ruth.

(04-11-2013, 01:52 PM)benyosef Wrote: Otherwise, why would the returnees have to send away the children, too? And then, once we know the mother is Jewish, we use the father to determine to which tribe the child belongs, based on Num 1:18 (which, incidentally, says nothing about the mother’s tribe).

Leviticus 24:11
And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name of the Lord, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of DanSmile

There is a lineage given of a Male born to a Israelite Mother only and his lineage traces back to a tribe. Notice it doesn't say just "Jewish"?

(04-11-2013, 01:52 PM)benyosef Wrote: Deut 23 doesn’t literally say things like “an Egyptian may be a Jew,” but uses an alternate description, i.e. may enter the congregation. Alternate descriptions for being Jewish are found several times in Torah. Another example is when G-D tells us that no native or foreign-born may consume leaven on Passover (Ex. 12:19). The entire chapter is to be spoken to Israel and Israel only, and nowhere are non-Jews bidden to observe Jewish holidays (not until the real Messiah arrives), so this “foreign-born” must be a convert to Judaism, who, as a Jew, is bound by the same laws as Jews and has the same privileges as Jews, including being able to marry a Jew.

It doesn't use a literal description because it is impossible for a stranger to convert and be called a Jew. Jew = contraction of Judah of the tribe of Judah and was used to describe the language of the "Jews" those of Judah, and Benjamin in reality. Israelite is what is written not "Jew" and you are only a Israelite if you have blood tracing back to one of the 12 tribes.
#18
(04-14-2013, 06:33 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(04-11-2013, 01:52 PM)benyosef Wrote: Otherwise, why would the returnees have to send away the children, too? And then, once we know the mother is Jewish, we use the father to determine to which tribe the child belongs, based on Num 1:18 (which, incidentally, says nothing about the mother’s tribe).
Leviticus 24:11
And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name of the Lord, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of DanSmile

There is a lineage given of a Male born to a Israelite Mother only and his lineage traces back to a tribe. Notice it doesn't say just "Jewish"?
Ezra 9:12 Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children for ever.

Notice the wording in Ezra, MJ. Why was there a concern about the inheritance for the children forever? Because, if either parent is not an Israelite, there is no inheritance. So, in light of this, Lev 24:11 proves only Shelomith had tribal lineage, and her son, of the tribe of "Egyptians", didn't.

And, in Ezra 10:14, we see that the judges and elders ruled in accordance with the verse above, and with Lev 17:9, to send away the non Israelite wives and children.

Ezra 10:14 Let now our rulers of all the congregation stand, and let all them which have taken strange wives in our cities come at appointed times, and with them the elders of every city, and the judges thereof, until the fierce wrath of our God for this matter be turned from us.

The sin is in intermarriage with a non-Israelite, not between tribes.
#19
MessianicJew Wrote:
benyosef Wrote:’Jewishness’ may not be written, but is heavily implied by Ezra 10, which shows that having a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother gives you non-Jewish children.
So then King David is not Jewish since Boaz married Ruth.

However, any king in Israel must be Jewish and David was hand-picked by G-D, so he must have been Jewish. Ruth converted.

MessianicJew Wrote:
benyosef Wrote:…once we know the mother is Jewish, we use the father to determine to which tribe the child belongs, based on Num 1:18 (which, incidentally, says nothing about the mother’s tribe).
Leviticus 24:11 …(and his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan)

Shlomit was from Dan because her father, Dibri, was from Dan. It does not say the blasphemer was from Dan because his mother cannot give him tribal affiliation.

MessianicJew Wrote:It doesn't use a literal description because it is impossible for a stranger to convert and be called a Jew. Jew = contraction of Judah of the tribe of Judah and was used to describe the language of the "Jews" those of Judah, and Benjamin in reality. Israelite is what is written not "Jew" and you are only a Israelite if you have blood tracing back to one of the 12 tribes.

Again, I use the term “Jew” as it has come to be used contemporaneously, i.e. speaking of any member of the Congregation of Israel. In the Desert such a term was not used, but rather terms like “the Assembly” or “the Congregation” were how we were known. It is clear from the text that “Jew” applies to at least three tribes—not just Judah—based on Esther (as we’ve discussed). Since the Torah speaks of people who may and may not join the Congregation, we know it is possible to convert to Judaism and enjoy all the perks of being part of G-D’s People.
#20
(04-15-2013, 11:57 AM)Nachshon Wrote: Ezra 9:12 Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children for ever.

Notice the wording in Ezra, MJ. Why was there a concern about the inheritance for the children forever? Because, if either parent is not an Israelite, there is no inheritance. So, in light of this, Lev 24:11 proves only Shelomith had tribal lineage, and her son, of the tribe of "Egyptians", didn't.

Not so, the Son of Shelomith was not written to be an Egyptian. You're not being fare with Tanakh. I can find where men are named, and then their Fathers name is named, and then his tribe is named. It is no different with Shelomith, yet you are trying to find a work around. Look, if it said he was an Egyptian for his Father was an Egyptian and his mother an Israelite. Then I would say OK. One problem, it doesn't trace his Dad only, it doesn't trace his Dad passed saying he was Egyptian. It then traces this man to his Mother to her Tribe of Dan.

(04-15-2013, 11:57 AM)Nachshon Wrote: And, in Ezra 10:14, we see that the judges and elders ruled in accordance with the verse above, and with Lev 17:9, to send away the non Israelite wives and children.

Ezra 10:14 Let now our rulers of all the congregation stand, and let all them which have taken strange wives in our cities come at appointed times, and with them the elders of every city, and the judges thereof, until the fierce wrath of our God for this matter be turned from us.

The sin is in intermarriage with a non-Israelite, not between tribes.

Then King David is once again, not a Israelite because Boaz married Ruth a "Strange" wife. All there children then should be sent away by your teaching.

The sin is both. You don't marry a non-Israelite, and you cannot marry outside your tribe because of inheritance. It is plainly written! The inheritance is not to go from tribe to tribe, but is to remain within each tribe. How much more simple can it get?


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