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Apostle Paul is a Jew
#31
(04-28-2013, 07:27 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: But you've went so far off of the original topic of whether a son/daughter can trace to their tribe via a woman that you've moved to land inheritance....
The point was that you're equating the words for tribal lineage and land inheritance. The Hebrew shows that only land inheritance passes, so tribal lineage could not have passed in the episodes in Numbers, and Ezra 9:2 shows any parent that is not an Israelite disqualifies the children from land inheritance anyway.

(04-25-2013, 11:25 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: No he wasn't wrong, he asked the question if God did not speak to them as he spoke to Moses. The only reason they were rebuked is because they didn't fear. "wherefore then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" That was the reason, not because of what they said. Numbers 12:12 has nothing to do with the real issue, when the issue is marrying non Israelites, which is why Aaron spoke up because Moses married an Ethiopian. This is basic stuff.
I answer this below.


(04-25-2013, 11:25 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: You don't understand simple reasoning.

8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

And only Miriam was leprous not Aaron
They both sinned. They should have feared to speak out against a Prophet of Hashem, verse 12:8. Why? Because whatever they said they sinned against Moses verse 12:11. It's pretty straight-forward.

To your point about G-d being specific. Why doesn't he state clearly that Moses sin was marrying a Cushite?

Let's look at Numbers 12:1 in Hebrew and then translate it.

Num 12:1 וַתְּדַבֵּ֨ר מִרְיָ֤ם וְאַהֲרֹן֙ בְּמֹשֶׁ֔ה עַל־אֹדֹ֛ות הָאִשָּׁ֥ה הַכֻּשִׁ֖ית אֲשֶׁ֣ר לָקָ֑ח כִּֽי־אִשָּׁ֥ה כֻשִׁ֖ית לָקָֽח׃
Starting from the right going left - "Vatedaber (And spoke) Miryam Ve-Aharon (and Aaron) beMoshe (with Moses) al-adiot (on account) ha-Cushite (the Cushite) asher (that) laqakh (he took) qi-ishah (a woman) Cushite.

If you do a word search on the Hebrew words "vatedaber" and "al-adiot" you'll see the translation is correct.

Reading the Hebrew, there is no attack or reprimand of Moses about his wife, only that they are talking to him about his wife. What about specifically is not said. But, 12:2 points to the issue being about prophecy. I don't think Moses could have been actively engaged in prophecy with Hashem if he was living in a constant state of sin being married to a forbidden woman.

But regardless of what was said, Miriam and Aaron sinned against Moses 12:11.
#32
(05-05-2013, 05:32 PM)Nachshon Wrote: The Hebrew shows that only land inheritance passes, so tribal lineage could not have passed in the episodes in Numbers, and Ezra 9:2 shows any parent that is not an Israelite disqualifies the children from land inheritance anyway.

That is an oxymoron of a contradiction. In order for land to pass through an inheritance a daughter has to be able to trace back to her Tribe.

(05-05-2013, 05:32 PM)Nachshon Wrote: asher (that)

??? How can Asher have a double-meaning? Asher means blessed or happy. You say this word is also "that"?

(05-05-2013, 05:32 PM)Nachshon Wrote: But regardless of what was said, Miriam and Aaron sinned against Moses 12:11.

Only because they weren't suppose to have no fear to speak out against a Prophet. It doesn't make what they said void and without a point.

You believe it is OK to marry Cushites? Deuteronomy 7 says no such thing.

Are you a reform Jew?
#33
(05-06-2013, 05:06 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(05-05-2013, 05:32 PM)Nachshon Wrote: The Hebrew shows that only land inheritance passes, so tribal lineage could not have passed in the episodes in Numbers, and Ezra 9:2 shows any parent that is not an Israelite disqualifies the children from land inheritance anyway.
That is an oxymoron of a contradiction. In order for land to pass through an inheritance a daughter has to be able to trace back to her Tribe.
No, you don't understand the difference between nachalat, mateh, and minachalat in Numbers. Please give your explanation for Ezra 9:2 and the issue of inheritance in this verse.

If we look at conditional statements based on the info from Numbers and Ezra, we get:

IF someone has tribal lineage
THEN land inheritance passes to them.

IF both parents are Israelites
THEN land inheritance passes to them.

IF someone has tribal lineage
THEN both parents are Israelites.

(05-06-2013, 05:06 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(05-05-2013, 05:32 PM)Nachshon Wrote: asher (that)
??? How can Asher have a double-meaning? Asher means blessed or happy. You say this word is also "that"?
Your confusing asher/that with ashrei/happy.

(05-06-2013, 05:06 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(05-05-2013, 05:32 PM)Nachshon Wrote: But regardless of what was said, Miriam and Aaron sinned against Moses 12:11.
Only because they weren't suppose to have no fear to speak out against a Prophet. It doesn't make what they said void and without a point.

You believe it is OK to marry Cushites? Deuteronomy 7 says no such thing.
I gave you the translation for Numbers 12:1. Did you find a problem with it?
Did Hashem give prophetic visions to an active sinner like Moses while being married to a forbidden woman according to your understanding?

(05-06-2013, 05:06 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: Are you a reform Jew?
This answer is a bit stale. Do you have something fresher, with maybe a bit of Seattle grunge to it? And no, I'm not a reform Jew. I think I answered this before.
#34
(05-07-2013, 06:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote: No, you don't understand the difference between nachalat, mateh, and minachalat in Numbers. Please give your explanation for Ezra 9:2 and the issue of inheritance in this verse.

If we look at conditional statements based on the info from Numbers and Ezra, we get:

IF someone has tribal lineage
THEN land inheritance passes to them.

IF both parents are Israelites
THEN land inheritance passes to them.

IF someone has tribal lineage
THEN both parents are Israelites.

Ezra 9:2, perhaps all the daughters understood the law and took only Israelite husbands.

(05-05-2013, 05:32 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Your confusing asher/that with ashrei/happy.

Genesis 30:13 13. And Leah said, "Because of my good fortune, for women have declared me fortunate"; so she named him Asher.

How can you say Asher = that?

(05-05-2013, 05:32 PM)Nachshon Wrote: I gave you the translation for Numbers 12:1. Did you find a problem with it?
Did Hashem give prophetic visions to an active sinner like Moses while being married to a forbidden woman according to your understanding?

If God did, it wasn't written, the book of Jasher isn't in the Tanakh. As well as other books written in the Old Testament.

(05-06-2013, 05:06 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: This answer is a bit stale. Do you have something fresher, with maybe a bit of Seattle grunge to it? And no, I'm not a reform Jew. I think I answered this before.

Seattle grunge? You are reform! Hey, Deuteronomy 7 says what it says. What is written is what is written.
#35
>>MJ: "Genesis 30:13 13. And Leah said, "Because of my good fortune, for women have declared me fortunate"; so she named him Asher. How can you say Asher = that?"<<
Just two examples:
Gen 1:21 >So G-D created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about (אֲשֶׁר֩ שָׁרְצ֨וּ)("asher shar'tzu") in it...
Gen 3:11 >And He said, ‘Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree from which I commanded you (אֲשֶׁ֧ר צִוִּיתִ֛יךָ)("asher tziviticha") not to eat?’
#36
(05-16-2013, 07:03 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: Ezra 9:2, perhaps all the daughters understood the law and took only Israelite husbands.
Precisely! Then, there is no inheritance for the Egptian son in Lev 24:10. The verse is clear - if any parent is a non-Israelite, no inheritance. And, taken together with the over-whelming evidence from the rest of Tanakh regrading inheritance, then there is no inheritance for children of mixed-marriages.

(05-16-2013, 07:03 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: Genesis 30:13 13. And Leah said, "Because of my good fortune, for women have declared me fortunate"; so she named him Asher.

How can you say Asher = that?
Same Hebrew letters or root word, but different vowel points. Look at Gen 1:7 for the same word with vowel points as an example.

(05-16-2013, 07:03 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: If God did, it wasn't written, the book of Jasher isn't in the Tanakh. As well as other books written in the Old Testament.
So in other words, you have no support for your opinion. Did you find a problem with my translation for Numbers 12:1?

(05-06-2013, 05:06 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
Nachshon Wrote:This answer is a bit stale. Do you have something fresher, with maybe a bit of Seattle grunge to it? And no, I'm not a reform Jew. I think I answered this before.
Seattle grunge? You are reform! Hey, Deuteronomy 7 says what it says. What is written is what is written.
Deut 7 says what, that you can't intermarry, yes. But, if you look at all of the Tanakh (which is written too!) to come up with an answer, you see that Moses was a prophet like no other and he would not have married someone forbidden. And, he would not have been in a constant prophetic state if he was living in constant sin with his wife. I've shown you how a stranger that accepts the G-d of Israel, the Torah, and the judgements of the leaders, is included in the people of Israel.

If you're going to examine each verse independently without considering other verses thay may contradict, then you should be consistent across all of your posts, i.e., John 1:18 and the previous discussions we've had.
#37
(05-17-2013, 10:47 AM)benyosef Wrote: >>MJ: "Genesis 30:13 13. And Leah said, "Because of my good fortune, for women have declared me fortunate"; so she named him Asher. How can you say Asher = that?"<<
Just two examples:
Gen 1:21 >So G-D created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about (אֲשֶׁר֩ שָׁרְצ֨וּ)("asher shar'tzu") in it...
Gen 3:11 >And He said, ‘Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree from which I commanded you (אֲשֶׁ֧ר צִוִּיתִ֛יךָ)("asher tziviticha") not to eat?’

Asher of the tribe has specific dots at the end. You're showing me a word without them. I may not be that good at my Hebrew, but I already see that much.
#38
(05-17-2013, 03:24 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Precisely! Then, there is no inheritance for the egptian son in Lev 24:10.

Potentially. I'm still undecided, but you could be right. We weren't originally talking about inheritance though, but Tribal lineage, and what it means to be an ethnic Jew. Which would follow through either the Mother or Father if you're half Israelite, because that woman who traces back to her tribe of Dan through her Father as it is written. Inheritance is a bigger problem and you could be right.

Jews don't look at Abraham and Sarah genealogy plainly. On Mt. Sinai there was a total number of population that Moses spoke to. In order to be "pure" the entire population would have to carefully intermarry and populate among cousins.

Ask your parents, do they come from the same tribe? So if Judaism wants to teach to be a Jew you need a Mother. That just isn't right. They can't define a Jew and what that even means. If you have a tribe, you're not a Jew, but if your Mother is Israelite then you're a Jew? That makes zero sense. You cannot have a tribe and not be a "Jew".

Another thing rarely spoken of, is who the females were of the 12 sons, plus Jacob had one daughter. They were from Laban. So the women going forward on Mt. Sinai had blood from Laban. Abraham was a Hittite and Sarah an Amorite.

'And you shall say; So said the Lord God to Jerusalem; Your dwelling place and your birth place are from the land of the Canaanites; your father was the Amorite, and your mother a Hittite.' ~Ezekiel 16:3~

(05-17-2013, 03:24 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Same Hebrew letters, different vowel points. Look at Gen 1:7 for the same word with vowel points.

Then it is a different word or at least it should be.
#39
(05-18-2013, 01:29 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: Tribal lineage would follow through the Mother because she traces back to her tribe of Dan as it is written.
The mother has no issue, the son of an Egyptian does. Erza 9:12 confirms this. Also, 1 Chronicles 2:27-33 shows the descendants of Jerahmeel. He has a daughter that marries an Egytian servant, 2:34-41. These grandchildren are excluded from being included in Jerahmeel's son's, verse 2:33. Why? Because according to Ezra 9:12 these children do not have an inheritance.

(05-18-2013, 01:29 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(05-17-2013, 03:24 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Same Hebrew letters, different vowel points. Look at Gen 1:7 for the same word with vowel points.
Then it is a different word or at least it should be.
Same Hebrew root, but different vowels and meanings. Sorry, but you and I do not make up the rules for the Hebrew language.

(05-18-2013, 01:29 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(05-17-2013, 03:24 PM)Nachshon Wrote: So in other words, you have no support for your opinion. Did you find a problem with my translation?
In other words you don't get that whether right or wrong, both Aaron and Miriam would have been reprimanded because they lacked fear of a Prophet. But...they were right, that is the point. You're just focusing on their lack of fear which you believe provides your proof. And it doesn't.
Either way, they were wrong, verse 12:11. This exchange is getting old. I've proved my point in the Hebrew translation in 12:1.

(05-18-2013, 01:29 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(05-17-2013, 03:24 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Deut 7 says what, that you can't intermarry, yes. But, if you look at all of the Tanakh (which is written to!) to come up with an answer, you see that Moses was a prophet like no other and he would not have married someone forbidden. I've shown you how a stranger that accepts the G-d of Israel, the Torah, and the judgements of the leaders, is included in the people of Israel.
You conveniently passed the Seattle grunge part, I don't think you're as Jewish as you want to be. Why even bring that garbage up?
Why do you bring up the same comeback "Are you a Reform Jew"? Argue on the points or don't post at all. As far as Seattle grunge, I guess the reference to the old music scene was out of place. I didn't mean anything by it other than it is old like your reply.

(05-18-2013, 01:29 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: That is only assumption that Moses would not have married someone forbidden, if you were right, Aaron and Miriam would have said nothing!!
It is not an assumption. How can a prophet continue to receive visions and words from Hashem when they are living in sin? Aaron and Miriam did not reprimand Moses. Please refer back to my translation of Numbers 12:1, or show me your translation.
#40
>>MJ: "Asher of the tribe has specific dots at the end. You're showing me a word without them. I may not be that good at my Hebrew, but I already see that much."<<
Those dots show the verse ends, but are not part of the word. I would not argue about the meaning of a word in a language I do not understand. If you're interested to research further, take a Hebrew Concordance and look up "asher." Yes, it is a name, but when used in other contexts it means "that/which." It appears a lot in Exodus 40, such as v. 16, 19, and 21.


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