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Apostle Paul is a Jew
#1
I hear Jews for Judaism among other non-Jesus-believing-Jews say that Apostle Paul wasn't a real Jew, or he came up with his own ways outside of Christ etc.

But as it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him.

~1 Corinthians 2:9~

What fake Jew quotes Prophet Isaiah?

64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither has the eye seen, O God, beside you, what he has prepared for him that waits for him.

~Isaiah 64:4~
#2
Many non-Jews quote the Jewish prophets, so that can't be adequate proof. What tells us Paul was not a Jew, or at least not a Pharisee, are two events in the Christian writings:

In Acts, ch. 7 and 8, the author tells us that Paul consented to the death of Stephen, the first Christian martyr. In Acts 22:4 he says that he "persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women." This manner of action is very much at odds with Gamliel, a head Pharisee, who explictly said not to kill these early Jesus-followers (Acts 5). If Paul truly studied under Gamliel, like he says in Acts 22:3 ("I am verily a man which am a Jew...brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers..."), then where did he get this idea that killing Christians is in accord with Pharisaic thought? The Pharisees were not, and have never been, into the killing of Christians.

Another proof is that, politically, Paul gave away his cards. In Acts 22:5, Paul is on the way to Damascus to continue his persecution of Christians. Who gave him these orders? The High Priest. However, at this stage of Jewish history, the office of the High Priest no longer was given to an outstanding member of the House of Aaron; rather, it was sold to the highest bidder (Jew or no Jew), and became a puppet serving the interests of Rome. Many times, the High Priest was a Sadducee, with whom the Pharisees were not on good terms. What Pharisee would work for a Sadducee?

Paul was no Pharisee.
#3
benyosef,

(03-07-2013, 12:24 PM)benyosef Wrote: Many non-Jews quote the Jewish prophets, so that can't be adequate proof.

Give an example, because Apostle Paul quoted Isaiah in belief of the God of Israel.

(03-07-2013, 12:24 PM)benyosef Wrote: What tells us Paul was not a Jew, or at least not a Pharisee, are two events in the Christian writings:

None of what you said would take away his Israelite ethnicity. Do you believe in a Jewish ethnicity tracing back to Isaac? Or do you believe in "events" that determine one to be a Jew?

Are Pharisees without sin? Have they ever sinned? When Apostle Paul became a believer he finally admitted that he was a sinner, his sin was a persecutor and slayer of Christians. So it seems even though he was taught to every letter of the law under a great Pharisee, and claimed he was held blameless, he still had a sin. This confession didn't come about until after he placed faith in Christ.

What list of sins can you commit and still be a Pharisee?
#4
An example would be when Muslims quote Deut 18 to tell me Mohammad was a prophet, much like when non-Jewish Jesus-believers do the exact same thing.

When Jews sin, and they realize they have sinned, they confess their sins before the G-D of Israel, repent, and G-D will forgive them (II Samuel 12:13, Ezk 18:21-22).

I have no idea if Paul was Jewish (as I said earlier), but a better question is: if someone claims to be a Pharisee, yet his actions are starkly in disaccord with Pharisaic thought, is he really a Pharisee? When a man works for a Sadduceean puppet of Rome and condones the death and imprisonment of people who believe differently than he does, what about that says "I'm a Pharisee?"

Note: I am not talking about sins, which anyone can expiate with repentance. I am talking strictly about his upbringing and way of life.
#5
(03-09-2013, 11:20 PM)benyosef Wrote: An example would be when Muslims quote Deut 18 to tell me Mohammad was a prophet, much like when non-Jewish Jesus-believers do the exact same thing.

Christians tell you Deuteronomy 18 is about Mohammad?

Apostle Paul quoted Isaiah he didn't say his words were that of a Prophet to come or some other Prophet. You're giving an example where they're telling you of another Prophet.

(03-09-2013, 11:20 PM)benyosef Wrote: When Jews sin, and they realize they have sinned, they confess their sins before the G-D of Israel, repent, and G-D will forgive them (II Samuel 12:13, Ezk 18:21-22).

God was talking to King David through a Prophet, not to the Children of Israel. The children of Israel are not described as being the apple of Gods' eye either.

Ezk 18:21-22 is to the wicked man. Are you claiming to be wicked? Yet your side claims that Isaiah 53 is about the righteous remnant of Israel. Now if that is correct, there is already a contradiction. You can't be a righteous remnant and also be wicked.

The righteous is mentioned in verse 24.

(03-09-2013, 11:20 PM)benyosef Wrote: I have no idea if Paul was Jewish (as I said earlier), but a better question is: if someone claims to be a Pharisee, yet his actions are starkly in disaccord with Pharisaic thought, is he really a Pharisee? When a man works for a Sadduceean puppet of Rome and condones the death and imprisonment of people who believe differently than he does, what about that says "I'm a Pharisee?"

Note: I am not talking about sins, which anyone can expiate with repentance. I am talking strictly about his upbringing and way of life.

Well, his claim is that he is of the tribe of Benjamin. That is a Jewish as you get next to being from the tribe of Judah.

You say his dis-accord was killing, and in this instance, killing Christians. Killing is a sin. So I asked what sins can you commit and still be a Pharisee? Because it is as if you're being bias toward Apostle Paul and taking the authority in elevating one sin over another to disqualify an individual as a Pharisee and a Jew.

Have you sinned? What about your sin says "I'm a Jew"? See what I mean?
#6
I wasn't clear: Muslims use Deut 18 to support their claims about Mohammad, just as Christians use it to support their claims about Jesus. Thanks for catching that ambiguity. In saying so, I was pointing out that just because someone quotes Torah, whether or not he cites sources, that does not make him Jewish.

Ezk 18 is referring to anyone who sins. Strictly speaking, anyone who sins is wicked until the sin is expiated. Once the sin is taken care of, the individual reverts to a righteous state. Thus, the Righteous Remnant of Israel is not a group of Jews who have never ever sinned, for that is quote hard to accomplish (II Kings 18:46, Ecclesiastes 7:20), but rather is a group of Jews who, when they fall into sin, repent of their ways and return to G-D (like Hosea recommends in 14:1-3). Thus Ezk speaks of the wicked one who, when he repents of his ways, will live because he has abandoned the wickedness he has committed. in verse 24 it speaks of a righteous one who turns away from his righteousness; if he doesn't repent, his prior righteousness is clouded by his current wickedness. He then finds himself in the category of "wicked" and is dutybound to repent.

So, to answer your last question, we need to diffrentiate between "Jew" and "Pharisee." A Jew is anyone who converts to Judaism or whose mother was Jewish. A Pharisee is one who devotes his life to serving G-D and studying His Torah. One can be a Jew but not a Pharisee, yet cannot be a Pharisee without being a Jew. I've heard Karl Marx was Jewish, but by no means could he be considered a Pharisee.

If Paul claims to be a Pharisee, but all we see about his pre-Christian life is doing things Pharisees do not condone, he is clearly not a Pharisee.
#7
I botched a source: I meant I Kings 8:46, when Solomon is speaking at the dedication of the First Temple.

Further questioning Paul's claim of Pharisee background is his role on the road to Damascus: In those days no Pharisee would work as an emissary of a Sadducee who bought the role of High Priest and was in all respects a puppet of Rome.
#8
(03-11-2013, 03:49 PM)benyosef Wrote: Ezk 18 is referring to anyone who sins. Strictly speaking, anyone who sins is wicked until the sin is expiated. Once the sin is taken care of, the individual reverts to a righteous state. Thus, the Righteous Remnant of Israel is not a group of Jews who have never ever sinned, for that is quote hard to accomplish (II Kings 18:46, Ecclesiastes 7:20), but rather is a group of Jews who, when they fall into sin, repent of their ways and return to G-D (like Hosea recommends in 14:1-3). Thus Ezk speaks of the wicked one who, when he repents of his ways, will live because he has abandoned the wickedness he has committed. in verse 24 it speaks of a righteous one who turns away from his righteousness; if he doesn't repent, his prior righteousness is clouded by his current wickedness. He then finds himself in the category of "wicked" and is dutybound to repent.

Boy I greatly disagree, Verse 24 speaks nothing of 'if he doesn't repent' of wickedness, but repenting of his righteousness becoming wicked. Ezekiel 18:5-9 and verse 24 is about the righteous man not to "any" man:
5. So a man who is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,

9. Has walked in My statutes, and has kept My ordinances to deal truly-he is a righteous man; he shall surely live, says the Lord God.

24. And when the righteous repents of his righteousness and does wrong and does like all the abominations that the wicked man did, shall he live? All his righteous deeds that he has done shall not be remembered; in his treachery that he has perpetrated and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die.

So you're claiming that all Jews are wicked?
#9
(03-11-2013, 03:49 PM)benyosef Wrote: So, to answer your last question, we need to diffrentiate between "Jew" and "Pharisee." A Jew is anyone who converts to Judaism or whose mother was Jewish.

Anyone with either a Father or Mother or both a Father and Mother who have blood tracing back to any of the children born to Jacob which are 12 sons and 1 daughter are Israelites. This heritage is passed down verbally. As Boaz married Ruth a Moabite, and it is never written that after her confessing the God of Israel as her God, she was written being called a Jew.

In the Tanach the word Jew has been written as applied to the tribe of Judah, the land of Judea and the language of the Jews and also the tribe of Benjamin only. However, it is not written if you're a Gentile that you're a Jew through conversion. Because this is never written in the Tanach from God to a Prophet.

(03-11-2013, 03:49 PM)benyosef Wrote: A Pharisee is one who devotes his life to serving G-D and studying His Torah. One can be a Jew but not a Pharisee, yet cannot be a Pharisee without being a Jew. I've heard Karl Marx was Jewish, but by no means could he be considered a Pharisee.

If Paul claims to be a Pharisee, but all we see about his pre-Christian life is doing things Pharisees do not condone, he is clearly not a Pharisee.

That would be an interesting conversation between the two of you then. Take two seconds to recite Romans 10:9 and you two could talk sometime:

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee...Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Acts 23:6 & 3 Philippians 5-7

Persecuting the Church is found among the ranks of those in the Ultra-Orthodox.
#10
Messianic Jew,

I think Paul is Jewish, but by chosing another faith it became somewhat difficult if he became an idol-worshipper or not.
And as some Messianic Jews believe that Judaism is through the fathers linuage, than Paul was a Roman according to some Messianic rabbi's and not a Jew.
You know these explanations.
Now it's time for Pesach, so until a few weeks or so, see you later.


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