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Permanent fulfillment of the law?
#11
(04-28-2013, 06:12 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote:
(04-27-2013, 08:46 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(04-26-2013, 04:48 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote:
(04-26-2013, 10:35 AM)benyosef Wrote: Back to the original point: Did Jesus really fulfill the Law for all time, so that we no longer have to keep them? It seems no, for G-D tells us that in the Messianic Age, the Jews will keep the Laws of the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33-34, Ezekiel 37:24).

I agree 100% with this.
I think it is important to draw the distinction between different Christian theologies - one that says the Torah exists only thru the Millenial (1000 yr.) reign of Yeshua, and those that think Torah is eternal for everymore.

When you say you agree 100%, which point do you agree with?

I agree with everything that benyosef said in that excerpt.

I thought I made it clear what I believe earlier, but to repeat myself, I believe that the Torah will be abolished - fully superceded by the New Torah - when the universe disappears in a flash of energy and a new universe is created, in which there will be no sun or moon in the sky.
And along with that the seed of Israel will disappear, right? Even though Isaiah 66:22 says:

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

and Isaiah 66:23 says:

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
#12
(04-29-2013, 06:16 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(04-28-2013, 06:12 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote:
(04-27-2013, 08:46 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(04-26-2013, 04:48 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote:
(04-26-2013, 10:35 AM)benyosef Wrote: Back to the original point: Did Jesus really fulfill the Law for all time, so that we no longer have to keep them? It seems no, for G-D tells us that in the Messianic Age, the Jews will keep the Laws of the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33-34, Ezekiel 37:24).

I agree 100% with this.
I think it is important to draw the distinction between different Christian theologies - one that says the Torah exists only thru the Millenial (1000 yr.) reign of Yeshua, and those that think Torah is eternal for everymore.

When you say you agree 100%, which point do you agree with?

I agree with everything that benyosef said in that excerpt.

I thought I made it clear what I believe earlier, but to repeat myself, I believe that the Torah will be abolished - fully superceded by the New Torah - when the universe disappears in a flash of energy and a new universe is created, in which there will be no sun or moon in the sky.
And along with that the seed of Israel will disappear, right? Even though Isaiah 66:22 says:

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

and Isaiah 66:23 says:

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
No, the seed of Israel will not disappear. It would be helpful if you would not try to invent things for me to say, and instead listen to what I actually say.
#13
(05-01-2013, 07:41 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: No, the seed of Israel will not disappear. It would be helpful if you would not try to invent things for me to say, and instead listen to what I actually say.
This exchange below happened 2-27-13. Has your view changed now? This is why I asked the question because you never replied back when I challengened you. Your comments below show you believe the nation of Israel, which would mean seed, will not continue, and neither will Torah as we currently know it. If your opinion has changed, please clarify your position as you appear to be contradicting your previous position.

(04-29-2013, 06:16 PM)Nachshon Wrote: "...Jeremiah 31:36-37 seems to me to say that the seed of Israel is permanent. The heavens and earth will always exist even "if" they are recreated. This is what I understand the prophet is saying."
(05-01-2013, 07:41 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: Jeremiah 31:36-37 state that the ordinances of the sun and moon must cease for Israel to stop being a nation. That is specifically stated to occur in Revelation 21:23, 22:5 in the new heavens and earth. So the heavens and earth will continue to exist in their new, re-made form, but the ordinances will cease.

(04-29-2013, 06:16 PM)Nachshon Wrote: "Isaiah 66:22-23 says the same thing – your seed will remain even after heaven and earth are recreated."
(05-01-2013, 07:41 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: It is natural to assume that if the seed remains, then the nation will be maintained. However, in the scenario of Hebrews and Revelation, there is to be a period of 1000 years in which the Levitical priesthood will receive the fulfillment of these prophecies in the land of Israel, but then those individuals of the seed of Israel and Levi will pass on into the new heavens and earth and will live forever, but the Levitical priesthood as such will be superceded by the priesthood of Melchizedek, and the nation of Israel will also not continue as a nation.
#14
(05-01-2013, 07:41 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: I thought I made it clear what I believe earlier, but to repeat myself, I believe that the Torah will be abolished - fully superceded by the New Torah - when the universe disappears in a flash of energy and a new universe is created, in which there will be no sun or moon in the sky.

No, the seed of Israel will not disappear. It would be helpful if you would not try to invent things for me to say, and instead listen to what I actually say.
If the Torah is abolished, so is Israel since the commandments are for all generations. Where do you find that the Torah will be abolished and replaced by another, given that we are warned about changes, Deut 4:2, and false prophets, Deut 13:1-8?

Jeremiah 31 doesn't say anything about a different Torah, but one that is written on the heart, not stone this time, Ezekial 36:26-27.
#15
Nachshon, I have not changed my view. Seed is not nation. If I say the nation ends, and you change that to seed, then you think I have said that the seed ends. When the prophet says God will take Levites for priests, you substitute that God will maintain the exclusive Levitical priesthood and then you say it is a contradiction that the Levitical priesthood will be superceded. All those substitutions that you are putting into the text and into my words cause hopeless confusion.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 says that God will make a new covenant, not according to the old one, and that the new covenant will be to write God's Torah in the minds and in the hearts. If there are no changes in the details, it will still be the old covenant. If we write the Torah on a computer instead of stone, or write in on our minds by memorizing it, it is still the same Torah, according to the old covenant. But the new covenant is NOT according to the old covenant. There has to be some change besides just the medium on which it is written.

Before Moses received the Torah, Melchizedek was a priest of God. Sacrifices were made in various places on various altars. Before that men were vegetarians. Then eating any kind of meat was allowed. Then the Torah came to say that only Levites could minister and offer sacrifices and Israelites were forbidden to eat unclean animals. God did not change, His law did not change but details changed in how it was expressed. Then there was the portable Tabernacle, replaced by the tabernacle of David for a short time, then the permanent Temple that Solomon built. Now there is no temple for these almost 2000 years. In light of all these changes, you should not limit God on what He can do in the future, especially when He states directly through the prophet Jeremiah that there is to be a new covenant not according to the old covenant. There will be Israelites and Levites, but Israel will no longer be the standard keeper nation it is supposed to be in this age, and Levites will no longer be the only priests. All will know God, Israelite or not.
#16
(05-04-2013, 03:24 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: Nachshon, I have not changed my view. Seed is not nation. If I say the nation ends, and you change that to seed, then you think I have said that the seed ends. When the prophet says God will take Levites for priests, you substitute that God will maintain the exclusive Levitical priesthood and then you say it is a contradiction that the Levitical priesthood will be superceded. All those substitutions that you are putting into the text and into my words cause hopeless confusion.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 says that God will make a new covenant, not according to the old one, and that the new covenant will be to write God's Torah in the minds and in the hearts. If there are no changes in the details, it will still be the old covenant. If we write the Torah on a computer instead of stone, or write in on our minds by memorizing it, it is still the same Torah, according to the old covenant. But the new covenant is NOT according to the old covenant. There has to be some change besides just the medium on which it is written.

Before Moses received the Torah, Melchizedek was a priest of God. Sacrifices were made in various places on various altars. Before that men were vegetarians. Then eating any kind of meat was allowed. Then the Torah came to say that only Levites could minister and offer sacrifices and Israelites were forbidden to eat unclean animals. God did not change, His law did not change but details changed in how it was expressed. Then there was the portable Tabernacle, replaced by the tabernacle of David for a short time, then the permanent Temple that Solomon built. Now there is no temple for these almost 2000 years. In light of all these changes, you should not limit God on what He can do in the future, especially when He states directly through the prophet Jeremiah that there is to be a new covenant not according to the old covenant. There will be Israelites and Levites, but Israel will no longer be the standard keeper nation it is supposed to be in this age, and Levites will no longer be the only priests. All will know God, Israelite or not.
I think I agree in that circumstances change, but Torah doesn't.

Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

The seed of Israel is associated with the nation of Israel. You can't separate the two. So, if you say that the seed will continue, but not as a nation, then you contradict yourself and scripture.

Of course all will know Hashem. But nations will continue, and so will Israel.
#17
"Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

The seed of Israel is associated with the nation of Israel. You can't separate the two. So, if you say that the seed will continue, but not as a nation, then you contradict yourself and scripture."

So, if I say, "George will stop playing baseball," then am I associating George with playing baseball and so cannot separate the two, and so if George stops playing baseball, then will George cease to exist? That verse in Jeremiah is a strong support for what the New Testament teaches and what I express as my understanding. It is a direct conditional statement, that if the ordinances (the sun, moon, stars, and sea) cease to be, then Israel also SHALL CEASE from being a nation. The prophecy of the Revelation (20:11, 21:1, 21:23) directly states that in the new heavens and the new earth, those ordinances shall cease to be. Thus, there is no contradiction in stating that there is to be no more temple (Revelation 21:22) in the New Jerusalem, and that there is to be a new priesthood (Hebrews 8:4, 13, 9:11, for example).
#18
(05-06-2013, 06:35 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: "Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

The seed of Israel is associated with the nation of Israel. You can't separate the two. So, if you say that the seed will continue, but not as a nation, then you contradict yourself and scripture."

So, if I say, "George will stop playing baseball," then am I associating George with playing baseball and so cannot separate the two, and so if George stops playing baseball, then will George cease to exist? That verse in Jeremiah is a strong support for what the New Testament teaches and what I express as my understanding. It is a direct conditional statement, that if the ordinances (the sun, moon, stars, and sea) cease to be, then Israel also SHALL CEASE from being a nation. The prophecy of the Revelation (20:11, 21:1, 21:23) directly states that in the new heavens and the new earth, those ordinances shall cease to be. Thus, there is no contradiction in stating that there is to be no more temple (Revelation 21:22) in the New Jerusalem, and that there is to be a new priesthood (Hebrews 8:4, 13, 9:11, for example).
1. You don't know much about conditional statements. You can't draw a conclusion about George because you lack additional facts. You should choose another example.

2. If the NT disagrees with the Tanakh, then that's a problem you have, not I. Deut 13:1-8.

3. Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. The sun, moon, and stars still exist below.

4. Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. New in Hebrew also means renewed.

5. Isaiah 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. So Israel's name remains as a nation.

6. Rev - not that I need to comment on these verses, but I think that if you examine the Greek in these verses, you'll see that the sun/moon are shuned, not necessary, only because of the glory of G-d. Not because they don't exist. Isa 60:20 talks about the sun and moon with respect to mourning. Why? Because Israel will no longer have to wait another day until their deliverance. In essense, the dawn of a new day with Hashem forever and his glory outshines everything!

Conclusion: Israel's seed and name remains, and so does Torah forever.
#19
"1. ...You can't draw a conclusion about George because you lack additional facts..."

And you need to gather some more facts before you accuse the New Testament of a contradiction.

"2. If the NT disagrees with the Tanakh, then that's a problem you have, not I. Deut 13:1-8."

But the NT does not disagree with the Tanakh.

"3. Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. The sun, moon, and stars still exist below."

Yes, I noticed, and that is why I believe that Israel continues today as the chosen nation of God.

"4. Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. New in Hebrew also means renewed."

Fine, but it also means new.

"5. Isaiah 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. So Israel's name remains as a nation."

I do not see the connection between name and nation.

"6. ... I think that if you examine the Greek in these verses, you'll see that the sun/moon are shuned, not necessary, only because of the glory of G-d. Not because they don't exist. Isa 60:20 talks about the sun and moon with respect to mourning. Why? Because Israel will no longer have to wait another day until their deliverance. In essense, the dawn of a new day with Hashem forever and his glory outshines everything!"

I will grant you that the verses I referenced do not say directly that the sun does not exist, but Revelation 21:1 states that the first heaven and the first earth are passed away, so that any "sun" that might be present would not be the same sun. Furthermore, a sun that is outshown by the glory of God would be in the same category as the stars during the day time are now outshown by the sun. Also, 21:25 states that there will be no night there, and Jeremiah 31:35 puts having the light of the sun by day and the light of the moon by night as conditions that must pass away for Israel to cease to be a nation.
#20
(05-09-2013, 06:40 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: "1. ...You can't draw a conclusion about George because you lack additional facts..."

And you need to gather some more facts before you accuse the New Testament of a contradiction.
Let's see, the NT says Torah abolished, Israel ceases (according to you)...

(05-09-2013, 06:40 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: "2. If the NT disagrees with the Tanakh, then that's a problem you have, not I. Deut 13:1-8."

But the NT does not disagree with the Tanakh.
See above.

(05-09-2013, 06:40 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: "3. Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. The sun, moon, and stars still exist below."

Yes, I noticed, and that is why I believe that Israel continues today as the chosen nation of God.
Ok, so we agree here until below.

(05-09-2013, 06:40 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: "4. Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. New in Hebrew also means renewed."

Fine, but it also means new.
Fine, but they both still exist, not obliterated.

(05-09-2013, 06:40 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: "5. Isaiah 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. So Israel's name remains as a nation."

I do not see the connection between name and nation.
If Israel's name exists, so do they as a nation. This ties back to #4.

(05-09-2013, 06:40 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: "6. ...I will grant you that the verses I referenced do not say directly that the sun does not exist, but Revelation 21:1 states that the first heaven and the first earth are passed away, so that any "sun" that might be present would not be the same sun. Furthermore, a sun that is outshown by the glory of God would be in the same category as the stars during the day time are now outshown by the sun. Also, 21:25 states that there will be no night there, and Jeremiah 31:35 puts having the light of the sun by day and the light of the moon by night as conditions that must pass away for Israel to cease to be a nation.
But these conditions never occur. If we understand the sun and moon representing the passing of time/days and Israel's mourning being over, Isaiah 60:20, then being in Hashem's eternal kingdom will never be night/sadness.

Again, Revelations say nothing about the sun and moon passing, only that they are not necessary because of Hashem's glory.


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