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Permanent fulfillment of the law?
#21
"If Israel's name exists, so do they as a nation."

This is your sticking point. The Bible does not say this, but you assume it.

"But these conditions never occur. If we understand the sun and moon representing the passing of time/days and Israel's mourning being over, Isaiah 60:20, then being in Hashem's eternal kingdom will never be night/sadness."

This also is your assumption, and not according to anything the Torah or Prophets say. I have the same trouble with Christian theologians, always making up symbolism so they don't face up to what the text actually says. Isaiah 60:19-20 were verses I had been overlooking, and are a much more direct statement that the sun is going to cease to be someday. "The sun shall no more be thy light...The sun shall no more go down..." almost verbatim the same as Revelation's statements. But theologians have no problem with these things. Just say that the sun is happiness, not the sun; just say that the new heavens and earth are not really new; just say that the new covenant is not really new, and all of the problems with the rabbis' theories disappear like magic.

But, hey, why are you arguing with me? I have committed to the fact that as long as the sun is there in the sky, then Israel continues to be God's chosen nation. Since you are sure that the sun will never cease to be, then you will never have a problem with me on that issue, will you? So support me as I try to convince Christian theologians of that.
#22
(05-13-2013, 05:18 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: "If Israel's name exists, so do they as a nation."

This is your sticking point. The Bible does not say this, but you assume it.
On the contrary. I showed you the asssociation with Israel's name and their existence as a nation. It's not my sticking point, it is in the Tanakh.

(05-13-2013, 05:18 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: "But these conditions never occur. If we understand the sun and moon representing the passing of time/days and Israel's mourning being over, Isaiah 60:20, then being in Hashem's eternal kingdom will never be night/sadness."

This also is your assumption, and not according to anything the Torah or Prophets say. I have the same trouble with Christian theologians, always making up symbolism so they don't face up to what the text actually says. Isaiah 60:19-20 were verses I had been overlooking, and are a much more direct statement that the sun is going to cease to be someday. "The sun shall no more be thy light...The sun shall no more go down..." almost verbatim the same as Revelation's statements. But theologians have no problem with these things. Just say that the sun is happiness, not the sun; just say that the new heavens and earth are not really new; just say that the new covenant is not really new, and all of the problems with the rabbis' theories disappear like magic.
Isaiah 60:20 explains 60:19 and that's why I showed you the relation to mourning. The verses in Revelations show that the Greek supports the notion that the brightness of the heavenly lights pale in comparison to G-d's glory. So, they still exist. And of course Isa 66 talks to Israel existing forever. You can't understand one verse by itself but need to balance all relevant passages for a proper understanding.

(05-13-2013, 05:18 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: But, hey, why are you arguing with me? I have committed to the fact that as long as the sun is there in the sky, then Israel continues to be God's chosen nation. Since you are sure that the sun will never cease to be, then you will never have a problem with me on that issue, will you? So support me as I try to convince Christian theologians of that.
If you believe that Israel ceases as a nation, then I can't support you. This is all part of replacement theology and maybe ties into dispensationallism.

Hag Sameach!
#23
(04-29-2013, 04:27 AM)Bluefinger2009 Wrote:
Quote:Back to the original point: Did Jesus really fulfill the Law for all time, so that we no longer have to keep them? It seems no, for G-D tells us that in the Messianic Age, the Jews will keep the Laws of the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33-34, Ezekiel 37:24).

In the Messianic Age, do you really think that God will be all that concerned about koscher meals, bar mitzvahs, dress codes, circumcision, sabbaths, and tithes? Or do you think that all that will naturally permeate from people as a reality of living in the kingdom of God? Christians speak of it like it a bride ready to be married. All the preparation up to that moment has been fulfilled. And that is how we view the Torah in Jesus, fulfilled. Even the prophet Jeremiah relayed:

"But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord : I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jeremiah 31:33 ESV)

They will not have to teach each other what God commands us to do because it will be written on their wills. It will be natural for them. Yet rabbinical schools have taught for over 2,000 years that one must recite and strictly observe the commands.

I find it hard to believe that the same God that brought Isaac in Abraham's life time did not also quickly bring His new covenant.

And the covenant is what I wanted to point out. The blessings of Abraham went to the uncircumcised Gentiles after Jerusalemw as destroyed while the Jews suffered the curse, despite what the Scriptures said.
It isn't only Rabbinical schools that teach that Torah should be followed, but Torah itself says this.

No where in Tanakh does it say that the content of Torah or the new covenant will change the rules. So, since blessings are associated with obedience, Deut 11:27, how do you think gentiles will be blessed without following the standards Hashem has laid out?

Have you read how in Isaiah 42, the servant teaches Torah to the nations/gentiles, and rules and judges by it? This is consistent with Deut 17:16-20, which says all kings of Israel must write copies of Torah, rule by Torah, and live by Torah. Why write these things if it is already in ones mind/heart? Just this law here, is one that Yeshua didn't fulfill, but you can look at the rest of 16-20 to see what else wasn't fulfilled.
#24
(05-24-2013, 11:30 AM)Nachshon Wrote: Have you read how in Isaiah 42, the servant teaches Torah to the nations/gentiles, and rules and judges by it? This is consistent with Deut 17:16-20, which says all kings of Israel must write copies of Torah, rule by Torah, and live by Torah. Why write these things if it is already in ones mind/heart? Just this law here, is one that Yeshua didn't fulfill, but you can look at the rest of 16-20 to see what else wasn't fulfilled.

Oh but Judaism says Gentiles only have to follow 7 Noach laws don't ya know? You Judaism don't all agree.

Once again, Christ had zero sin. Not one sin, and his heart is pure, and his soul. That is how one fulfills the law. In purity, hating sin, eschewing sin and not even taking part in one ounce. You can't just be "obedient" and yet grudge against certain parts or have certain parts be laborious or offensive or anything but true zeal in purity and Holiness.

In fact, what non-Jesus-believing Jew will say "I'm pure in heart, mind and soul"? Do you eschew sin? Do you truly hate all of it? Ever lust there Nachshon? Ever think a sexual thought to the same of opposite sex? Jesus did ZERO sins in heart. Most of you talk more about not eating pork, then about love, grace, and mercy. Hatred is murder people. Ever hate?

Can Judaism even grasp that thought of being perfect?

The standard is "Let God be my Judge."

But yet all I ever read from your side is Christians, Christians, crusades, crusades, Christian who did this atrocity or that, never thinking perhaps they weren't Christian at all....Your side doesn't have grace, and mercy. Just condemnation. You keep dredging up the past to Christians who never took part in such acts.
#25
(05-24-2013, 11:30 AM)Nachshon Wrote: It isn't only Rabbinical schools that teach that Torah should be followed, but Torah itself says this.

No where in Tanakh does it say that the content of Torah or the new covenant will change the rules. So, since blessings are associated with obedience, Deut 11:27, how do you think gentiles will be blessed without following the standards Hashem has laid out?

Have you read how in Isaiah 42, the servant teaches Torah to the nations/gentiles, and rules and judges by it? This is consistent with Deut 17:16-20, which says all kings of Israel must write copies of Torah, rule by Torah, and live by Torah. Why write these things if it is already in ones mind/heart? Just this law here, is one that Yeshua didn't fulfill, but you can look at the rest of 16-20 to see what else wasn't fulfilled.

Didn't God make the promises to Abraham BEFORE the Torah was given?

If so, how can the Torah nullify the promises? Yet, in it, the inheritance of the kingdom is restricted to those who obey the Torah.

But the rabbis did not inherit the promises by observing the Torah and still haven't to this day.

And God promised to the bless all the nations through Abraham. Where are those blessings and how have the rabbis brought them to us? I can't think of one rabbi other than Jesus that has ever blessed the world.
#26
(05-28-2013, 03:12 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: Oh but Judaism says Gentiles only have to follow 7 Noach laws don't ya know? You Judaism don't all agree.

Once again, Christ had zero sin. Not one sin, and his heart is pure, and his soul. That is how one fulfills the law. In purity, hating sin, eschewing sin and not even taking part in one ounce. You can't just be "obedient" and yet grudge against certain parts or have certain parts be laborious or offensive or anything but true zeal in purity and Holiness.

In fact, what non-Jesus-believing Jew will say "I'm pure in heart, mind and soul"? Do you eschew sin? Do you truly hate all of it? Ever lust there Nachshon? Ever think a sexual thought to the same of opposite sex? Jesus did ZERO sins in heart. Most of you talk more about not eating pork, then about love, grace, and mercy. Hatred is murder people. Ever hate?

Can Judaism even grasp that thought of being perfect?

The standard is "Let God be my Judge."

But yet all I ever read from your side is Christians, Christians, crusades, crusades, Christian who did this atrocity or that, never thinking perhaps they weren't Christian at all....Your side doesn't have grace, and mercy. Just condemnation. You keep dredging up the past to Christians who never took part in such acts.
Actually, I've never posted such a thing. I believe in one standard for all of mankind, which is Torah. The 7 Noachide laws is a starting point, an introduction if you will, to the Torah.

The Crusades I've never mentioned in these posts, but it's funny how you and other Christians bring up the sins of Jews as presented in Tanakh. It's a double standard you are using.

As far as Yeshua and sinning, he wasn't perfect otherwise the Nt wouldn't mention that he increased in wisdom and perfection. Hebrews 5:7 definitely shows he came up short and pleaded for salvation.
#27
(05-28-2013, 03:12 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: Oh but Judaism says Gentiles only have to follow 7 Noach laws don't ya know? You Judaism don't all agree
You're right, today, Gentiles only need to respect 7 laws. My issue is how did Paul (NOT JESUS) decide that from that day forward, all the future Gentiles that used to be Jews, no longer have to follow the 613 laws? Who gave him the right to do so? Please don't say God because it clearly isn't so.
When you have a full religion start based on one guy (Jesus), who he himself was a righteous Jew who mostly followed the law, AND tried to spread it as much as possible with many quotes found in the NT about it being the one true eternal law, how does Paul give himself the right to abolish it from there on.
Quote:Once again, Christ had zero sin. Not one sin, and his heart is pure, and his soul. That is how one fulfills the law. In purity, hating sin, eschewing sin and not even taking part in one ounce.
Luke 6:2 would disagree that he had zero sin.

Quote:In fact, what non-Jesus-believing Jew will say "I'm pure in heart, mind and soul"? Do you eschew sin? Do you truly hate all of it? Ever lust there Nachshon? Ever think a sexual thought to the same of opposite sex? Jesus did ZERO sins in heart. Most of you talk more about not eating pork, then about love, grace, and mercy. Hatred is murder people. Ever hate?
I don't think Nachshon ever claimed to be perfect, did he? That's the thing, other that Jesus, no other Jew in history has claimed to be the son of God which in other words, means perfect. We know that we sin. We know that we sometimes have the intention to sin as well. But that's the rout to the end of our physical lives. We sin, we repent, we don't commit the same sins again. We always try to be the best possible people we can be, both spiritually and socially. God doesn't expect us to be perfect. He expects us to be more good than bad, and that's all we can hope for.

Quote:Can Judaism even grasp that thought of being perfect?
You have to have a pretty big ego to grasp that thought. I don't see how else you can even entertain the thought at being perfect. Even Moses never claimed to be perfect.

Quote:The standard is "Let God be my Judge."

But yet all I ever read from your side is Christians, Christians, crusades, crusades, Christian who did this atrocity or that, never thinking perhaps they weren't Christian at all....Your side doesn't have grace, and mercy. Just condemnation. You keep dredging up the past to Christians who never took part in such acts.
I agree with you on this one, but I understand the point of view that he is bringing up.
Should we remind up to this day to Germans on what Hitler has done before most of these Germans were even born? That's a whole debate on
its own, but you get the point.
#28
I see many people have made an effort to answer this question, but no effort earned a follow up from you yet. I'll also make an effort to answer you. Smile

"Woe unto the man, says Shimon ben Yochai, who asserts that this Torah intends to relate only commonplace things and secular narratives; for if this were so, then in the present times likewise a Torah might be written with more attractive narratives. In truth, however... When the angels wish to descend to the lower world, they have to don earthly garments. If this be true of the angels, how much more so of the Torah...The narratives of the Torah are its garments. He who thinks that these garments are the Torah itself deserves to perish and have no share in the world to come. Woe unto the fools who look no further when they see an elegant robe! More valuable than the garment is the body which carries it, and more valuable even than that is the soul which animates the body. Fools see only the garment of the Torah, the more intelligent see the body, the wise see the soul, its proper being; and in the Messianic time the 'upper soul' of the Torah will stand revealed."

I quote this, in agreement, in order to move away from the idea that we are actually talking about a God who cares so much about what I had for lunch... rather what does this Law mean? What is the soul of it?

It is written about Peter's (that first diciple of Jesus) vision:
"...and he saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven."

Even that Christian Peter did not take the vision to mean Pork-party!, he is quoted as saying, a day after the vision, to an Italian: “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean."

So what I'm saying is that your interaction with non-jews on this forum means you've been having ham and eggs for a long time!
But be of good cheer! What God has made clean, do not call common.
This is in accordance with messianic prophecies: "It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth."
And so the Prophecy and the Law in question are fulfilled.
#29
(05-30-2013, 08:43 AM)Nachshon Wrote: The Crusades I've never mentioned in these posts, but it's funny how you and other Christians bring up the sins of Jews as presented in Tanakh. It's a double standard you are using.

Judaism does, not your personally.

(05-30-2013, 08:43 AM)Nachshon Wrote: As far as Yeshua and sinning, he wasn't perfect otherwise the Nt wouldn't mention that he increased in wisdom and perfection. Hebrews 5:7 definitely shows he came up short and pleaded for salvation.

Luke 2:52
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

John 17:23
I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and has loved them, as you have loved me.

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

The above doesn't mean Christ came up short. Christ never missed the mark.
#30
(05-30-2013, 08:57 AM)dantech Wrote: You're right, today, Gentiles only need to respect 7 laws. My issue is how did Paul (NOT JESUS) decide that from that day forward, all the future Gentiles that used to be Jews, no longer have to follow the 613 laws? Who gave him the right to do so? Please don't say God because it clearly isn't so.

Probably because there is no biblical reference to 613 commandments, although the later rabbinic leaders claimed that all 613 commandments are alluded to within the Ten Commandments. The first actual reference to 613 commandments is found in a lengthy Talmudic passage. There, Rabbi Simlai (third century A.D.) is quoted as saying, “Six hundred and thirteen precepts were communicated to Moses, three hundred and sixty-five negative precepts, …and two hundred and forty-eight positive precepts…

In the book of James we are in the law of liberty now. The book of James was written to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. You should read it when you have the time.

(05-30-2013, 08:57 AM)dantech Wrote: When you have a full religion start based on one guy (Jesus), who he himself was a righteous Jew who mostly followed the law, AND tried to spread it as much as possible with many quotes found in the NT about it being the one true eternal law, how does Paul give himself the right to abolish it from there on.

Where does Apostle Paul abolish the law exactly?

(05-30-2013, 08:57 AM)dantech Wrote: Once again, Christ had zero sin. Not one sin, and his heart is pure, and his soul. That is how one fulfills the law. In purity, hating sin, eschewing sin and not even taking part in one ounce.
Luke 6:2 would disagree that he had zero sin.
[/quote]

And Jesus answering them said, Have you not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was hungry, and they which were with him; How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the show bread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone? And he said to them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.


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