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Permanent fulfillment of the law?
#31
(05-30-2013, 08:57 AM)dantech Wrote: I don't think Nachshon ever claimed to be perfect, did he?

Unless I ask, I can't judge what a man believes in their heart.

(05-30-2013, 08:57 AM)dantech Wrote: That's the thing, other that Jesus, no other Jew in history has claimed to be the son of God which in other words, means perfect. We know that we sin. We know that we sometimes have the intention to sin as well. But that's the rout to the end of our physical lives.

It is also the route to the end of your eternal life with Elohim. Because without this perfection, without supernatural atonement, all good works are made futile by the evil ones we commit. Deuteronomy says to keep ALL the law. Not just some of it. The whole system is not in place and is fractured to peaces. The only hope now is in Christ who his Father gave him the power to forgive men of their sins.

Like I've said, a Jew who believes in Jesus gets his cake and eats it too. Not so in Judaism.

(05-30-2013, 08:57 AM)dantech Wrote: We sin, we repent, we don't commit the same sins again. We always try to be the best possible people we can be, both spiritually and socially. God doesn't expect us to be perfect. He expects us to be more good than bad, and that's all we can hope for.

Wholehearted = perfect. Less than that simply isn't wholehearted.

(05-30-2013, 08:57 AM)dantech Wrote: You have to have a pretty big ego to grasp that thought.

That is like saying I have to have a pretty big ego to grasp the thought of having a perfect car new off the dealers lot...that the paint has to come with a nice gauged scratch along the fenders or something.

That seems like you're selling yourself short because you have the misnomer that ego allows one to grasp a thought about perfection.

I bet you wouldn't say that if the entire Levites and all 12 tribes were in Israel and you could watch the High Priest atone...would you?

(05-30-2013, 08:57 AM)dantech Wrote: I don't see how else you can even entertain the thought at being perfect. Even Moses never claimed to be perfect.

Why? Moses was the greatest Prophet there ever would be. Your own Torah tells you to have a whole heart, not 1/2 a heart.

(05-30-2013, 08:57 AM)dantech Wrote: I agree with you on this one, but I understand the point of view that he is bringing up.
Should we remind up to this day to Germans on what Hitler has done before most of these Germans were even born? That's a whole debate on
its own, but you get the point.

See, that is what I mean. You just did it too, you lumped Germans in with Hitler because Hitler was German. Now why remind just Germans? As if they are the only ones able to commit that type of atrocity. Why not use Hitler as a bad example for the whole world to learn from?
#32
(05-29-2013, 07:45 PM)Bluefinger2009 Wrote:
(05-24-2013, 11:30 AM)Nachshon Wrote: It isn't only Rabbinical schools that teach that Torah should be followed, but Torah itself says this.

No where in Tanakh does it say that the content of Torah or the new covenant will change the rules. So, since blessings are associated with obedience, Deut 11:27, how do you think gentiles will be blessed without following the standards Hashem has laid out?

Have you read how in Isaiah 42, the servant teaches Torah to the nations/gentiles, and rules and judges by it? This is consistent with Deut 17:16-20, which says all kings of Israel must write copies of Torah, rule by Torah, and live by Torah. Why write these things if it is already in ones mind/heart? Just this law here, is one that Yeshua didn't fulfill, but you can look at the rest of 16-20 to see what else wasn't fulfilled.

Didn't God make the promises to Abraham BEFORE the Torah was given?

If so, how can the Torah nullify the promises? Yet, in it, the inheritance of the kingdom is restricted to those who obey the Torah.

But the rabbis did not inherit the promises by observing the Torah and still haven't to this day.

And God promised to the bless all the nations through Abraham. Where are those blessings and how have the rabbis brought them to us? I can't think of one rabbi other than Jesus that has ever blessed the world.
I don't see where you get that I said that the Torah nullifies the promises Hashem gave to Israel?

The Jews are still around so that shows that Hashem is faithful to his promises. And, there are still rabbis around too!

The fact that you have a bible in your hand is a blessing from the rabbis and the nation of Israel as a whole. Even J-sus used our Tanakh, so he was blessed by the Jews too. Don't forget, salvation is of the Jews.
#33
(05-31-2013, 07:17 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

The above doesn't mean Christ came up short. Christ never missed the mark.
Compare the Greek word for offerings in Hebrews 5:7 with that in Hebrews 10:12. The context is an offering for sin, so Yeshua offered prayers and supplications associated with his own shortcomings; he pleaded for his own salvation to G-d.
#34
(05-31-2013, 08:22 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: Unless I ask, I can't judge what a man believes in their heart.
None of us can, but that's beside the point.

(05-30-2013, 08:57 AM)dantech Wrote: It is also the route to the end of your eternal life with Elohim. Because without this perfection, without supernatural atonement, all good works are made futile by the evil ones we commit. Deuteronomy says to keep ALL the law. Not just some of it. The whole system is not in place and is fractured to peaces. The only hope now is in Christ who his Father gave him the power to forgive men of their sins.
If God didn't expect us humans, who he created and knows we aren't perfect (none of us are, not even Jesus or Moses), to sin, then why would he create repentance? In the Tanakh, as well as in the NT there are many verses about repentance.

We are asked to accept and follow all the laws, yes. However, he knew none of us would be perfect, and gave us the gift of repentance specifically because he knows that we will sometimes, or even often fail at following ALL the laws.

But let me get something straight, to you, if we don't follow all the laws, then it's better to follow none of them?

Quote:Like I've said, a Jew who believes in Jesus gets his cake and eats it too. Not so in Judaism.
And I say, a Jew who believes in Jesus is in for a great surprise.

(05-30-2013, 08:57 AM)dantech Wrote: Wholehearted = perfect. Less than that simply isn't wholehearted.
Actually, no. Wholehearted = intention to be completely devoted to. This is what he asks of us, to give every effort to be completely devoted to him. If we fail, then his perfect system contains repentance which will give us as many chances as we need, as long as we are meaningful in our repentance.

Quote:That is like saying I have to have a pretty big ego to grasp the thought of having a perfect car new off the dealers lot...that the paint has to come with a nice gauged scratch along the fenders or something.
I don't know how you can begin to compare our egos about ourselves to that of a car. God is perfect, and is said to be unique and that is all. If any of us were perfect, we would be God as well. Perhaps this is where The Trinity theory comes from, but I find it to be a grave error.

Quote:That seems like you're selling yourself short because you have the misnomer that ego allows one to grasp a thought about perfection.
I don't think I am selling myself short. I simply don't believe a human can be equal to God, ever...
#35
Quote:I bet you wouldn't say that if the entire Levites and all 12 tribes were in Israel and you could watch the High Priest atone...would you?
Moses never claimed to be perfect, and he was as close as it's ever going to get, aside from maybe the REAL messiah. Even a High Priest who atones is not perfect. He can be at an extremely high spiritual level, but never perfect.

Quote:Why? Moses was the greatest Prophet there ever would be. Your own Torah tells you to have a whole heart, not 1/2 a heart.
Your own Messiah/God (if you believe in the trinity), asks you to follow the laws of the Torah, yet you do not, only based on the teachings of a guy who lived a few hundred years later and who has never even met the person in question.
Quote:See, that is what I mean. You just did it too, you lumped Germans in with Hitler because Hitler was German. Now why remind just Germans? As if they are the only ones able to commit that type of atrocity. Why not use Hitler as a bad example for the whole world to learn from?

That is not at all what I am doing. In fact, I did the opposite. I was showing you through Hitler, an example. But I clearly stated whether we should do this or not, is a debate on its own.
#36
(06-02-2013, 11:57 AM)Nachshon Wrote: Compare the Greek word for offerings in Hebrews 5:7 with that in Hebrews 10:12. The context is an offering for sin, so Yeshua offered prayers and supplications associated with his own shortcomings; he pleaded for his own salvation to G-d.

Yeshua offered prayers and supplications as a High Priest, as the one after the order of Meclchizedek not for his own shortcomings, but because he was perfect, read Hebrews 5 verse 9-10 then read Hebrews 10:14, all about how perfect Christ is.
#37
(06-03-2013, 12:40 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(06-02-2013, 11:57 AM)Nachshon Wrote: Compare the Greek word for offerings in Hebrews 5:7 with that in Hebrews 10:12. The context is an offering for sin, so Yeshua offered prayers and supplications associated with his own shortcomings; he pleaded for his own salvation to G-d.

Yeshua offered prayers and supplications as a High Priest, as the one after the order of Meclchizedek not for his own shortcomings, but because he was perfect, read Hebrews 5 verse 9-10 then read Hebrews 10:14, all about how perfect Christ is.
Even a High Priest offers sacrifices on his own behalf. I don't think you looked at the Greek in these two verses for the word offered/offering, Hebrews 5:7 and Hebrews 10:12, which prove conclusively that Yeshua made sacrifices for himself, pleading for salvation.
#38
(06-03-2013, 03:24 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Even a High Priest offers sacrifices on his own behalf. I don't think you looked at the Greek in these two verses for the word offered/offering, Hebrews 5:7 and Hebrews 10:12, which prove conclusively that Yeshua made sacrifices for himself, pleading for salvation.

Christ is after the order of Melchizedek.
#39
(06-03-2013, 03:24 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Even a High Priest offers sacrifices on his own behalf. I don't think you looked at the Greek in these two verses for the word offered/offering, Hebrews 5:7 and Hebrews 10:12, which prove conclusively that Yeshua made sacrifices for himself, pleading for salvation.

Christ is after the order of Melchizedek.
#40
(06-03-2013, 06:54 AM)dantech Wrote: Actually, no. Wholehearted = intention to be completely devoted to.

People intend to do things all the time and don't. If your wholehearted it happens, with zero intent, you just do it by heart.

(06-03-2013, 06:54 AM)dantech Wrote: This is what he asks of us, to give every effort to be completely devoted to him. If we fail, then his perfect system contains repentance which will give us as many chances as we need, as long as we are meaningful in our repentance.

The system was perfect, it is fractured because of your imperfections. Not because of your wholeheartedness. Elohim calls you stiff necked! You don't have Levites and High Priests. In fact, you weren't even perfect out on Sinai, Moses said this himself. He said you were falling away and asked how much more after his death. Your temples were collapsed not once but twice, then you were kicked out of the land!

And you're trying to say you can be wholehearted today. That is a pipe dream.


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