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Permanent fulfillment of the law?
#1
Even if you accept the premise that J.C. fulfilled the law for all times, that would apply only the the affirmative mitzvot, not the negative ones.

For instance, how can he "fulfill" the prohibition on pork for all times such that it becomes permissible to eat pork? The stuff is outlawed and you violate the law (at least it's you're Jewish) by eating eat. J.C. could not have permanently fulfilled this prohibition precisely because it is a prohibition.
#2
It is important to remember that Jesus obeyed Gods will with a whole heart. So that faith in Christ allows food to be sanctified by the word of God and prayer. Sanctification is another part of having faith in Christ. We are in the law of liberty so that to whom it is clean it is clean, and yet others eat only herbs. If you're a Jew and believe in Jesus, you can keep the dietary laws, but you realize that Jesus fulfillment of the law and prophets was due to a pure heart which no man has.
#3
(03-29-2013, 07:49 PM)shlomo Wrote: Even if you accept the premise that J.C. fulfilled the law for all times, that would apply only the the affirmative mitzvot, not the negative ones.

For instance, how can he "fulfill" the prohibition on pork for all times such that it becomes permissible to eat pork? The stuff is outlawed and you violate the law (at least it's you're Jewish) by eating eat. J.C. could not have permanently fulfilled this prohibition precisely because it is a prohibition.

Do you think that perhaps the fulfilling of the commandments were not necessarily the observation of each individual one but rather meeting the intent of the entire collection of them all?

An example of this is occupational safety. In my job, we are required to wear puncture-proof goggle when cutting safety wire. If a person turns his head and cuts the wire, is he not meeting the intent of the law? He isn't doing it by the book, but he is meeting the intent of the command.

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the mitzvot given as a means for the Israelites to maintain their inheritance of the blessings that the LORD promised to Abraham? Wasn't the Sinai covenant basically the LORD's promise to give the Israelites the inheritance of Abraham on condition that they obey every commandment?

We know that they evidently didn't meet their end of the covenant, as seen by the Babylonian Exile. Daniel 9 seems to indicate that, toward the end of the 70 years of exile, they still had not repented and were thus placed on a sort of 490 year probation. That would explain why, toward the time of Jesus, the Jews anticipated the coming of the Messiah to forcibly remove the kingdom from the hands of the Romans and return the promises of Abraham back to the Israelites. As shown in Matthew 21:33-45, Jesus brought the unfortunate news that the kingdom of God was going to be taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles.

How did the Gentiles receive the inheritance of Abraham and the Jews lost it if the Israelites had meticulously obeyed the mitzvot and if fulfilling the mitzvot was the meticulous observation of each commandment to the letter?[/i]
#4
There is intent and there is observance. If someone merely dons tefillin, he has observed the commandment (Ex 13). If he puts it on with the intent to fulfill the word of G-D, he has both observance and intent, which is certainly a step higher. In light of negative commandments, if one is never given the opportunity to murder, he merely has not transgressed, and could be said to observe that law. If he has the opportunity and refrains from doing so, with this command in mind, he has intent, too.

The intent of the commandments is to do them (Num 15:37-41) so that we can fear G-D and live long (Deut 6:1-3).

Although Jesus says the Kingdom will be taken from the Jews, G-D says something else entirely. To cite but a few sources:
*Jeremiah 31:35-37 tells us that the Nation of Israel will never cease being a nation before G-D.
*Isaiah 49:15 tells us G-D will never forget Israel.
*Daniel 7:27 tells us that the Holy Supreme Nation (i.e. Israel) will be given dominion in the End Days.
*Zechariah 8:23 tells us that in that time the nations will come to the Jews because they heard that G-D is with the Jews.

The Gentiles will not receive the inheritance of Abraham, but in the Messianic Age will flock to the Temple of the L-RD and learn to walk in His ways (Isa 2:3), because in those days all mankind will worship G-D (Isaiah 66:23).

Back to the original point: Did Jesus really fulfill the Law for all time, so that we no longer have to keep them? It seems no, for G-D tells us that in the Messianic Age, the Jews will keep the Laws of the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33-34, Ezekiel 37:24).
#5
(04-26-2013, 10:35 AM)benyosef Wrote: Back to the original point: Did Jesus really fulfill the Law for all time, so that we no longer have to keep them? It seems no, for G-D tells us that in the Messianic Age, the Jews will keep the Laws of the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33-34, Ezekiel 37:24).

I agree 100% with this.
#6
(04-26-2013, 04:48 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote:
(04-26-2013, 10:35 AM)benyosef Wrote: Back to the original point: Did Jesus really fulfill the Law for all time, so that we no longer have to keep them? It seems no, for G-D tells us that in the Messianic Age, the Jews will keep the Laws of the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33-34, Ezekiel 37:24).

I agree 100% with this.
I think it is important to draw the distinction between different Christian theologies - one that says the Torah exists only thru the Millenial (1000 yr.) reign of Yeshua, and those that think Torah is eternal for evermore.

When you say you agree 100%, which point do you agree with?
#7
(04-27-2013, 08:46 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(04-26-2013, 04:48 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote:
(04-26-2013, 10:35 AM)benyosef Wrote: Back to the original point: Did Jesus really fulfill the Law for all time, so that we no longer have to keep them? It seems no, for G-D tells us that in the Messianic Age, the Jews will keep the Laws of the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33-34, Ezekiel 37:24).

I agree 100% with this.
I think it is important to draw the distinction between different Christian theologies - one that says the Torah exists only thru the Millenial (1000 yr.) reign of Yeshua, and those that think Torah is eternal for everymore.

When you say you agree 100%, which point do you agree with?

I agree with everything that benyosef said in that excerpt.

I thought I made it clear what I believe earlier, but to repeat myself, I believe that the Torah will be abolished - fully superceded by the New Torah - when the universe disappears in a flash of energy and a new universe is created, in which there will be no sun or moon in the sky.
#8
(04-26-2013, 10:35 AM)benyosef Wrote: There is intent and there is observance. If someone merely dons tefillin, he has observed the commandment (Ex 13). If he puts it on with the intent to fulfill the word of G-D, he has both observance and intent, which is certainly a step higher. In light of negative commandments, if one is never given the opportunity to murder, he merely has not transgressed, and could be said to observe that law. If he has the opportunity and refrains from doing so, with this command in mind, he has intent, too.

I dunno. There has to be a reason for the Laws. In our state, you will get a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt. One can wear the seatbelt without even knowing the law and still meet its intent. But one can also wear the seatbelt knowing that the intent is to both save lives and reduce insurance costs. It isn't solely to appease the state. Of course, the heart of this is that the state wants people to live and be happy, not having mangled body parts and high insurance costs. They also don't want to have to use their money to ensure that it never happens again.

What you are talking about is obeying to make God happy, even if you don't know why it makes Him happy. From Jesus, we know that God is happy when justice, mercy, and compassion are shown, not when festivals and works are strictly observed. See Matthew 25:31-46.
#9
Quote:The intent of the commandments is to do them (Num 15:37-41) so that we can fear G-D and live long (Deut 6:1-3).

Although Jesus says the Kingdom will be taken from the Jews, G-D says something else entirely. To cite but a few sources:
*Jeremiah 31:35-37 tells us that the Nation of Israel will never cease being a nation before G-D.
*Isaiah 49:15 tells us G-D will never forget Israel.
*Daniel 7:27 tells us that the Holy Supreme Nation (i.e. Israel) will be given dominion in the End Days.
*Zechariah 8:23 tells us that in that time the nations will come to the Jews because they heard that G-D is with the Jews.

The Gentiles will not receive the inheritance of Abraham, but in the Messianic Age will flock to the Temple of the L-RD and learn to walk in His ways (Isa 2:3), because in those days all mankind will worship G-D (Isaiah 66:23).

This, especially the last paragraph, is what the Gospel of Matthew spends a lot of time focusing on. You say that the Gentiles will not receive the inheritance of Abraham, yet that was the primary message that Jesus and the Apostles preached. And, after looking at Daniel 9, to whom was the kingdom given to after the temple was destroyed and the Jews scattered?

My argument was that no amount of Torah observance prevented the first century Jews from suffering the curse of the Law or the generations after them. The rabbinical schools teach, by using the Torah, that those that observed the Torah would be blessed. Yet that was not the case at all. If observing the commands allows one to live long and fear God, then why did the first century Jews find neither? Josephus records the depraved state that the Jews ended up in at Jerusalem during the war. The hole in the rabbinical argument is not that they don't know what the Torah is saying. The hole is that they were cursed despite what the Torah said. This is a hole that demands to be filled with a legitimately reasonable explanation.
#10
Quote:Back to the original point: Did Jesus really fulfill the Law for all time, so that we no longer have to keep them? It seems no, for G-D tells us that in the Messianic Age, the Jews will keep the Laws of the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33-34, Ezekiel 37:24).

In the Messianic Age, do you really think that God will be all that concerned about koscher meals, bar mitzvahs, dress codes, circumcision, sabbaths, and tithes? Or do you think that all that will naturally permeate from people as a reality of living in the kingdom of God? Christians speak of it like it a bride ready to be married. All the preparation up to that moment has been fulfilled. And that is how we view the Torah in Jesus, fulfilled. Even the prophet Jeremiah relayed:

"But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord : I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jeremiah 31:33 ESV)

They will not have to teach each other what God commands us to do because it will be written on their wills. It will be natural for them. Yet rabbinical schools have taught for over 2,000 years that one must recite and strictly observe the commands.

I find it hard to believe that the same God that brought Isaac in Abraham's life time did not also quickly bring His new covenant.

And the covenant is what I wanted to point out. The blessings of Abraham went to the uncircumcised Gentiles after Jerusalemw as destroyed while the Jews suffered the curse, despite what the Scriptures said.


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