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The Messiah and Jerusalem's Deliverance
#11
Maybe I'm too much of a critical reader, but it seems like the author was trying point out that God doesn't lie as if He was a man. It's not stating that God cannot be a man at will. That contradicts the ambuigity of His name, I AM THAT I AM.


Mainly speaking on the end point, Philippians 2 says that Jesus did not count equality with God something to be grasped but humbled Himself, even to the cross. And by that, it was not Jesus that exalted Himself but the Father.

Anyway, the rabbinical research may be very thorough (and their arguments against Jesus have not improved since the days of the apostles), but it still doesn't explain why they were cast out of Jerusalem and into shame among foreigners. Deuteronomy 28:1-14 is clear that God will bless those that keep His Law. The Pharisees and Saduccees were very zealous about that and taught others to do the same. So, if they were correct, why were they cast out and shamed?

Jerusalem represented the place where the will of God was carried out on earth among men. But Jesus taught His followers to say, "Our Father who is in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. In Revelation, Jerusalem is revealed as a place that comes from heaven and is established on earth, adorned and ready like a bride that has prepared for her wedding. Therefore, it was taught that, after the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost, the kingdom of God began in Jerusalem and began spreading throughout the earth. Because of that, the LORD's name was praised all over the world; among some Jews and many Gentiles.

In other words, Jerusalem is with Christ in Heaven, but His will is carried out among His people on earth. That was the point of Jesus' parable about the mustard seed that, though it was tiny, it outgrew the garden and filled the earth, giving all manners of creatures a place to rest. So Jerusalem is inhabited safely and God's people, whom received Abraham's inheritance by faith, will forever dwell safely because of our great King.

Again, if your teachers were so correct about the Torah and all things related to Prophets, why were they brutally killed, exiled, shamed, chased, harassed, and cast off from Abraham's inheritance? They followed the Torah and were punished as Law breakers.

I wouldn't be asking this again if you had satisfied my question earlier.
#12
(05-12-2013, 01:12 PM)Bluefinger2009 Wrote: Maybe I'm too much of a critical reader, but it seems like the author was trying point out that God doesn't lie as if He was a man. It's not stating that God cannot be a man at will. That contradicts the ambuigity of His name, I AM THAT I AM.
I understand Numbers 23:19 using conditional logic. Since we know man lies/is deceitful, then he can't be G-d. Since we know G-d doesn't lie, He can't be a man.

Hosea 11:9 is a little more straight forward in the Hebrew because the taamei hamikra (cantillation marks) in the verse break off the sentence "for I am G-d and not a man", which can stand on its own.

By G-d becoming a man, this would remove all ambiguity of who He is, so this doesn't align with your reasoning on why He can't be a man.

A final point. Let's look at Jeremiah 16:20 [ISV] - Can a person make a god for himself? They are not gods!

If you look at the Hebrew, this verse can be understood as "Can a man make G-d of himself? They are not G-d." This would agree with Jer 17:5 where we are not to trust in mortal man who can die. So, Yeshua/J-sus cannot be G-d.

(05-12-2013, 01:12 PM)Bluefinger2009 Wrote: ... but it still doesn't explain why they were cast out of Jerusalem and into shame among foreigners.
Deut 28:1-69 is addressed to the whole nation of Israel. So, whereas certain individuals could have been innocent, sometimes innocent people get hurt along with the non-innocent. So, as a whole, the nation strayed from Torah and all were punished. This is the age old question of why does bad happen to good people.

(05-12-2013, 01:12 PM)Bluefinger2009 Wrote: ...
I wouldn't be asking this again if you had satisfied my question earlier.
So, Zech 7:12 captures what you are saying, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Torah is still the right thing to do. Where does Tanakh say that Israel was cast off from Abraham's inheritance? We might forget our obligations, but G-d doesn't.

Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Lev 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.

Lev 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

Lev 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
#13
Bluefinger2009 Wrote:I think you erred in stating that the 70 weeks began upon the start of the Babylonian exile. However, according to Daniel 9, 70 years had already passed before the 70 weeks were even decreed.

Let’s work backwards: the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE. The Temple stood for 420 years. Thus, the 70 weeks began in 420 BCE. The reckoning from 608 BCE is erroneous and lends credence to fictional claims of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy to erase about 150 years from world records (or something like that).

According to Daniel 9, about 50 years had passed since the 70 weeks were decreed. 9:1 says this occurred in the first year of Darius the Mede. We know that Babylon lasted but 70 years (Jer 25:12), and Darius only one year, followed immediately by Cyrus, who was G-D’s anointed and gave the word to return and rebuild Jerusalem (Isa 45:1, Ezra 1:1).

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:The Pharisees and Saduccees were very zealous about that and taught others to do the same.

The Sadducees were not in the same league as the Pharisees: they were a breakoff sect who denied the Oral Torah and have since faded into nothingness. Jesus is attributed as saying “the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat” (Mt 23:2), which means A. the rabbis have the same authority as Moses, and B. the Sadducees do not.

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:In Revelation, Jerusalem is revealed as a place that comes from heaven and is established on earth…Therefore, it was taught that, after the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost, the kingdom of God began in Jerusalem and began spreading throughout the earth. Because of that, the LORD's name was praised all over the world…Jerusalem is inhabited safely and God's people, whom received Abraham's inheritance by faith, will forever dwell safely because of our great King.

Ezekiel 40-48 describe quite vividly the literal Temple which will stand in the End of Days, so it’s not merely an idea, but will be a physical reality. In those days, G-D will be one and His name one (Zec 14:9), and all mankind will worship Him (Isa 66:23). Although many peoples claim to know G-D, the promise is that all the world will know Him, so we are clearly not there yet.

What do you mean when you say “Jerusalem is inhabited safely?” Hamas and Hezbollah are still wreaking havoc.
#14
(06-20-2013, 11:05 AM)benyosef Wrote:
Bluefinger2009 Wrote:I think you erred in stating that the 70 weeks began upon the start of the Babylonian exile. However, according to Daniel 9, 70 years had already passed before the 70 weeks were even decreed.

Let’s work backwards: the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE. The Temple stood for 420 years. Thus, the 70 weeks began in 420 BCE. The reckoning from 608 BCE is erroneous and lends credence to fictional claims of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy to erase about 150 years from world records (or something like that).

Wouldn't it be erroneous to work backwards from the date Jerusalem was destroyed? That, in itself, would deny all other facts that contradict it. But, since I'm not positive who came up with the date of 608 BCE and why, I'll concede to the possibility that you are correct.


Bluefinger2009 Wrote:The Pharisees and Saduccees were very zealous about that and taught others to do the same.

The Sadducees were not in the same league as the Pharisees: they were a breakoff sect who denied the Oral Torah and have since faded into nothingness. Jesus is attributed as saying “the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat” (Mt 23:2), which means A. the rabbis have the same authority as Moses, and B. the Sadducees do not.[/quote]

So, can we blame the Pharisees for Jerusalem's destruction? And the rabbis for her desolation? Certainly, if the rabbis were correct back then, God would not have excluded them from Abraham's promises. And isn't the current Jewish religion based on their writings?

Quote:Ezekiel 40-48 describe quite vividly the literal Temple which will stand in the End of Days, so it’s not merely an idea, but will be a physical reality. In those days, G-D will be one and His name one (Zec 14:9), and all mankind will worship Him (Isa 66:23). Although many peoples claim to know G-D, the promise is that all the world will know Him, so we are clearly not there yet.

If everything is filled with the knowledge of the LORD and all mankind worship Him, why would there be a need for sacrifices in the temple, which Ezekiel describes happening in the third temple?
Quote:What do you mean when you say “Jerusalem is inhabited safely?” Hamas and Hezbollah are still wreaking havoc.

Jerusalem isn't just a city in Palestine. It is the heavenly residence of all of God's saints, no matter where on earth they are located. If God pours out His Spirit on all mankind, then all of mankind becomes Jerusalem, the city of God. That is what the New Testament means by New Jerusalem.
#15
[quote='Bluefinger2009' pid='88411' dateline='1376448585']
If everything is filled with the knowledge of the LORD and all mankind worship Him, why would there be a need for sacrifices in the temple, which Ezekiel describes happening in the third temple?
[quote]
If you read Isaiah 66 entirely, you'll see all of mankind comes to worship in Jerusalem, at least those who have accepted the New Moons (and by implication the other festivals since they are based on the lunar calendar), and the Sabbath, 66:23.

Hashem established his name in the temple, 1 Kings 8:1,29, so it is only appropriate to pick up the service of Him there.

I think I answered your previous questions a few posts before this one.

[quote='Bluefinger2009' pid='88411' dateline='1376448585']
Jerusalem isn't just a city in Palestine. It is the heavenly residence of all of God's saints, no matter where on earth they are located. If God pours out His Spirit on all mankind, then all of mankind becomes Jerusalem, the city of God. That is what the New Testament means by New Jerusalem.
[/quote]
Jerusalem has never been in Palestine, nor has Israel ever been called Palestine by the Jews. That is revisionists history. What is your source for this teaching from the NT where all of mankind becomes Jerusalem?
#16
Naschon,

I only meant Palestine as a geographical location that all readers can understand.

As far as the teaching in the NT that all believers become Jerusalem, I'll put some under this statement:

"For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:18-22 ESV)

"But we are citizens of the state (commonwealth, homeland) which is in heaven, and from it also we earnestly and patiently await [the coming of] the Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) [as] Savior, Who will transform and fashion anew the body of our humiliation to conform to and be like the body of His glory and majesty, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself." (Philippians 3:20, 21 AMP)

"And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, all arrayed like a bride beautified and adorned for her husband; Then I heard a mighty voice from the throne and I perceived its distinct words, saying, See! The abode of God is with men, and He will live (encamp, tent) among them; and they shall be His people, and God shall personally be with them and be their God. [Ezek. 37:27.] God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more, neither shall there be anguish (sorrow and mourning) nor grief nor pain any more, for the old conditions and the former order of things have passed away. [Isa. 25:8; 35:10.] And He Who is seated on the throne said, See! I make all things new. Also He said, Record this, for these sayings are faithful (accurate, incorruptible, and trustworthy) and true (genuine). [Isa. 43:19.] And He [further] said to me, It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I [Myself] will give water without price from the fountain (springs) of the water of Life." [Isa. 55:1.] (Revelation 21:2-6 AMP)

I have more, I just ran out of characters allowed.
#17
For thus it stands in Scripture: Behold, I am laying in Zion a chosen (honored), precious chief Cornerstone, and he who believes in Him [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] shall never be disappointed or put to shame. [Isa. 28:16.] To you then who believe (who adhere to, trust in, and rely on Him) is the preciousness; but for those who disbelieve [it is true], The [very] Stone which the builders rejected has become the main Cornerstone, [Ps. 118:22.] And, A Stone that will cause stumbling and a Rock that will give [men] offense; they stumble because they disobey and disbelieve [God's] Word, as those [who reject Him] were destined (appointed) to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a dedicated nation, [God's] own purchased, special people, that you may set forth the wonderful deeds and display the virtues and perfections of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. [Exod. 19:5, 6.] Once you were not a people [at all], but now you are God's people; once you were unpitied, but now you are pitied and have received mercy. [Hos. 2:23.] (1 Peter 2:6-10 AMP)

Which is more important? The city or the temple? And which is more important? The priesthood or the altar? And which is more important? The altar or the Spirit behind the veil that rests on the Mercy Seat? That Spirit left the temple during the days of Ezekiel and returned in the person of Jesus. All who partake of his flesh and blood also join Him as a residence for the Spirit of God, the most important thing in Jerusalem. Now, Jesus ascended to heaven, to the throne of God. When the New Jerusalem descends, so will the throne of God. Then all things will be subjected to God. So, Jerusalem is currently in heaven, where the Messiah's throne is.

As the saints take part in the flesh and blood of Jesus (through communion, an act of faith,) they partake in Jerusalem, a heavenly citizenship. That is how all believers are Jerusalem.
#18
Bluefinger2009 Wrote:So, can we blame the Pharisees for Jerusalem's destruction?...

If we must administer blame, we can blame the many Jews who fell prey to the many traps which lured them away from G-D's Torah, such as the Hellenists, Sadducees, early Christians, etc. The Pharisees certainly tried to keep Jews Jewish, but secularization proved quite a force.

The Pharisees were certainly not excluded from Avraham’s covenant for we are still here as dust of the earth: anyone who wishes seems to have free reign to step all over us (see the UN for a good example).

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:If everything is filled with the knowledge of the LORD and all mankind worship Him, why would there be a need for sacrifices in the temple, which Ezekiel describes happening in the third temple?

Good question. Leviticus 4:2 says sin sacrifices only work for unintentional sins, which could still be possible despite universal knowledge of G-D, for we are human.

Another answer: When someone or something was inaugurated into Divine service, a sin-offering was brought (the priests in Exodus 29 and the Tabernacle in Numbers 7 are two examples). Thus, the sin-offerings specifically mentioned in Ezekiel 43:18-27 are for the inauguration of the third Temple.

The question is really on Christianity, who maintains the sacrificial system is forever done away with (Hb 10:12, 26). What do Christians do with the sacrifices in Ezekiel 43?

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:Jerusalem isn't just a city…It is the heavenly residence of all of God's saints, no matter where on earth they are located. If God pours out His Spirit on all mankind, then all of mankind becomes Jerusalem, the city of God. That is what the New Testament means by New Jerusalem.

Jeremiah 23 speaks of a Jerusalem and a Judah that, until the son of David reigns, were not dwelling safely. Is this “new Jerusalem” dwelling safely now? How will we be able to tell? What about Judah: is there a “new Judah” which is now saved from its enemies?

We see here a Christian prooftext method: take a clear prophecy, reinterpret it to refer to spiritual concepts, and thereby make it impossible to challenge or verify, and declare them “fulfilled” only by the Nazarene. If that means ignoring the rest of a verse or its context, so be it, for “in pretense or in truth, Christ must be preached.”
#19
(08-19-2013, 08:51 AM)Bluefinger2009 Wrote: Naschon,

I only meant Palestine as a geographical location that all readers can understand.

As far as the teaching in the NT that all believers become Jerusalem, I'll put some under this statement:

"For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:18-22 ESV)

"But we are citizens of the state (commonwealth, homeland) which is in heaven, and from it also we earnestly and patiently await [the coming of] the Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) [as] Savior, Who will transform and fashion anew the body of our humiliation to conform to and be like the body of His glory and majesty, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself." (Philippians 3:20, 21 AMP)

"And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, all arrayed like a bride beautified and adorned for her husband; Then I heard a mighty voice from the throne and I perceived its distinct words, saying, See! The abode of God is with men, and He will live (encamp, tent) among them; and they shall be His people, and God shall personally be with them and be their God. [Ezek. 37:27.] God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more, neither shall there be anguish (sorrow and mourning) nor grief nor pain any more, for the old conditions and the former order of things have passed away. [Isa. 25:8; 35:10.] And He Who is seated on the throne said, See! I make all things new. Also He said, Record this, for these sayings are faithful (accurate, incorruptible, and trustworthy) and true (genuine). [Isa. 43:19.] And He [further] said to me, It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I [Myself] will give water without price from the fountain (springs) of the water of Life." [Isa. 55:1.] (Revelation 21:2-6 AMP)

I have more, I just ran out of characters allowed.

Sorry, none of these verses equates Jerusalem with believers.
#20
(08-19-2013, 06:47 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Sorry, none of these verses equates Jerusalem with believers.

Really what part about Philippians 3:20-21 did you not get that from?

"But we are citizens of the state (commonwealth, homeland) which is in heaven, and from it also we earnestly and patiently await [the coming of] the Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) [as] Savior, Who will transform and fashion anew the body of our humiliation to conform to and be like the body of His glory and majesty, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself." (Philippians 3:20, 21 AMP)

As I posted earlier, Ephesians 2 shows us that the believers themselves are the temple. Philippians 3 shows us that we are also citizens of the state which is in heaven. Revelation 21 shows that the state being referred to is called New Jerusalem. And Christian theology shows that we are found in Jesus, the ruler of New Jerusalem. And if we are found in Jesus, then we are co-heirs to the throne. Thus, as Revelation 1:5 shows, we are not only priests of the temple of God, which is the Church, but we are also a kingdom.

Put together, the believers are the kingdom of God. If you cannot see that, then you are refusing to. That kingdom is called New Jerusalem. Thus, the believers all over the world are Jerusalem.

"Another story by way of comparison He set forth before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field. Of all the seeds it is the smallest, but when it has grown it is the largest of the garden herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and find shelter in its branches." (Matthew 13:31, 32 AMP)


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