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Issues with the NT
#11
(06-24-2013, 01:04 PM)benyosef Wrote: I do what I can. I put away leaven and eat unleavened bread for seven days (Exo 12:15), refrain from work on the first (v. 16) and seventh (Num 28:25) days, and I remember the day I left Egypt (Deut 16:3). Do I bring a Passover offering nowadays? No, for the Torah strictly forbids bringing the Passover outside the Temple:
“You may not sacrifice the passover within any of your gates, which the L-RD your G-D gives you, but at the place which the L-RD your G-D shall choose to place His name in, there you shall sacrifice the Passover...And you shall roast and eat it in the place which the L-RD your G-D shall choose...” (Deut 16:5-7)

I do what I can...that to me is sad for Judaism. That is all I hear. So you don't eat it quickly with staff in hand? Do you cook the lamb with all the entrails?

(06-24-2013, 01:04 PM)benyosef Wrote: I understand the difference, but I did not ask if you trust in Paul to die for your sins. I asked why you put any trust in a man who willfully distorts the words and messages of the Psalms to fit his agenda.

There is so much wrong with claiming to tell the heart of a man who is even alive to explain and then you assert his intent on top of it. You claim you understand, like the understanding of a Prophet? Because Apostle Paul certainly claimed the understanding of an Apostle.

(06-24-2013, 01:04 PM)benyosef Wrote: Of course! G-D says this is a valid choice in this situation for Jews loyal to the Torah.

No it doesn't. It is an embarrassment. You twist it like getting your shoe loosened and spit in the face and refusal to raise seed to your brother is an obedient Jew loyal to Torah. No it isn't. It's a consequence for a cop out.
#12
(06-24-2013, 01:04 PM)benyosef Wrote: “For this commandment which I command you this day, it is not hidden from you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh to you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it.” (Deut 30:11-14)

If we can't, why does Ecclesiastes say it is the whole of man (12:13)?

Those who say the laws are impossible to fulfill are those who have never done so, and probably never tried to, in their lives.

Is your passover lamb without blemish, a male of the first year?
Do you keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month?
Do you take the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein you shall eat it?
Do you roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the internal organs?
Do you let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remains of it until the morning do you burn with fire?
Do you eat the lamb with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and in haste?

(06-24-2013, 01:04 PM)benyosef Wrote: I don't think I took that position, but since you brought it up: maybe in theory you are correct, but if one believes that J died for your past, present, and future sins, then what’s stopping a Christian from sin? Especially if one holds Paul’s position on faith without works (Gal 3).

If you ask any Christian, have you sinned since you became a Christian? Probably all will say yes. But it is never to be condoned nor intentional. The soul is willing but the flesh is weak.

The point of Galatians 3 is that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God and that whosoever of them were justified by the law; they are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4. And yet the Galatians were heading in that direction.

Some here on the Judaism side don't even claim justification, but they claim obedience. The Galatians were claiming justification and Apostle Paul corrected them like a Jew in Christ would.
#13
MessianicJew Wrote:So you don't eat it quickly with staff in hand? Do you cook the lamb with all the entrails?

I don’t expect G-D to smite the Egyptians at midnight every year, so, according to you, am I missing this element of service as well? If I can do four out of five, should I not perform any commandments on account of the missing part? Even when the missing element is expressly forbidden by the Torah in today’s situation (see Deut 12:5-14), I should throw all of it out the window? When the Jews were in exile for 70 years did they abandon the Torah? We see no, for Haman complained that the Jews keep their own laws to the exclusion of the king’s (Esther 3:8). We have other examples of Jews following the Torah on foreign soil in Dan 1:8-19, 3:12-27, 6:10. Why didn’t they say, “well, we don’t have the Temple, so until we get it back, religion is on hold and we can act as we please?”

MessianicJew Wrote:It is an embarrassment. You twist it like getting your shoe loosened and spit in the face and refusal to raise seed to your brother is an obedient Jew loyal to Torah.

Listen to what you’re saying. When discussing Passover, you tried to call me out for not following explicit Torah commandments. Here, when the Torah explicitly gives directive in a given situation, suddenly it’s a “consequence for a cop out” and not what G-D wants from a Jew. Which is it?

MessianicJew Wrote:(series of Passover-related questions which benyosef said cannot be fulfilled in the absence of the Temple, or which only applied in Egypt and not to future generations)

Do you find it interesting that Ecclesiastes says following the commandments is the whole of man, but says absolutely nothing about believing in a crucified demigod? Must be that commandments are essential for achieving G-D’s blessing and maximizing one’s potential, and the crucifixion offers no benefit to man.

To answer your questions: No, I have not yet brought a Passover sacrifice, since we do not have the Temple (thank you, Rome). When the Temple again stands atop the Temple Mount, you can bet my Passover will be an unblemished first-year sheep or goat, and roasted and eaten in accord with the Torah.
#14
MessianicJew Wrote:If you ask any Christian, have you sinned since you became a Christian? Probably all will say yes. But it is never to be condoned nor intentional.

All will say “yes” because they believe they are inherently sinful and cannot repent. What matters according to your texts?
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” (Mk 16:16).
Sinning is neither condoned nor condemned. According to this, the only thing that affects one’s eternity is whether or not they believe the Nazarene is the Messiah. When Adolf Eichmann was sentenced to hang, he requested a confessor. We have no idea if he showed remorse for his actions, yet since he accepted J as his lord and savior, Christianity teaches he went straight to Heaven, while the millions of Jews he slaughtered are burning downstairs.

MessianicJew Wrote:The point of Galatians 3 is that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God and that whosoever of them were justified by the law; they are fallen from grace.

It seems that Paul’s tirade against works extends to more than just the Galatians in this one instance, for there are a few places in his writings where he has a problem with the Torah (hb 7:19 comes to mind). I think Galatians is his most outright complaint against the Torah and “works,” because while the mitzvot were clearly given for the Jews’ benefit (Lev 26:1-13, for one), Paul argues that the commandments of the Torah do nothing for anybody; faith is all that matters, and those who try to keep the commandments are “fallen from grace.”
#15
Tell me, what is considered a sin in christianity? I'm curious.
Murdering? Stealing? Premarital sex?

Where do you learn that these are indeed sins?
#16
(07-18-2013, 12:04 PM)benyosef Wrote: I don’t expect G-D to smite the Egyptians at midnight every year, so, according to you, am I missing this element of service as well?

That isn't part of a Passover, why do you dodge commands? And try to bring up stuff that isn't written.

(07-18-2013, 12:04 PM)benyosef Wrote: Listen to what you’re saying. When discussing Passover, you tried to call me out for not following explicit Torah commandments. Here, when the Torah explicitly gives directive in a given situation, suddenly it’s a “consequence for a cop out” and not what G-D wants from a Jew. Which is it?

You don't understand a consequence when it isn't told to you. That is like saying "Hey, the law says I can do community service..." That is what you're trying to justify. A spit in the face is a consequence for not raising seed. A new name given to you that isn't one of honor isn't a blessing. But hey, do what you want.

As for Passover, you're not even keeping it right, and you don't even need a Temple. When the command was given for all generations, a Temple was not a requirement.

(07-18-2013, 12:04 PM)benyosef Wrote: To answer your questions: No, I have not yet brought a Passover sacrifice, since we do not have the Temple (thank you, Rome). When the Temple again stands atop the Temple Mount, you can bet my Passover will be an unblemished first-year sheep or goat, and roasted and eaten in accord with the Torah.

You've been sinning, you don't need a Temple.
#17
MessianicJew Wrote:That isn't part of a Passover, why do you dodge commands? And try to bring up stuff that isn't written…you're not even keeping it right, and you don't even need a Temple. When the command was given for all generations, a Temple was not a requirement….You’ve been sinning, you don’t need a Temple.

You asked if I put blood on my doorposts and eat the goat with staff in hand. The Torah says the blood is to protect me when G-D smites Egypt, and the staff was because we were hours away from leaving Egypt. These elements were very much a part of the Passover in Egypt, but you somehow think they apply in all generations, so I asked if I am further lacking in my Passover observance—in your eyes—for not believing G-D will continue to smite Egypt every year and for not expecting Him to take me out of Egypt again.

Presently, I cannot bring the Passover because the Passover is an offering (Numbers 9:13) and all offerings must be brought in the Temple (Deuteronomy 12:6-14). I am not sinning, but am physically incapable of doing everything. Does this mean I cannot do anything? Not at all. As I said earlier, the Jews between the Temples kept the Torah laws, despite not having the sacrificial services. Why didn’t they say, “well, we don’t have the Temple, so until we get it back, religion is on hold and we can act as we please?”

MessianicJew Wrote:You don't understand a consequence when it isn't told to you. That is like saying "Hey, the law says I can do community service..." That is what you're trying to justify. A spit in the face is a consequence for not raising seed. A new name given to you that isn't one of honor isn't a blessing.

Deuteronomy 25:5 says that the first option is for her to marry the brother-in-law. Verse 7 says that if he doesn’t want to, we do not force him to marry her anyway, but there is another procedure. If the Torah itself gives us this option, it must be that’s what’s expected of a Jew. He receives a new “title,” but that title isn’t “wicked person,” because he is doing exactly what the Torah says.

Similarly, in Exodus 12:10, the Torah tells us not to leave the Passover meat until morning. But, if some meat was left over, the Torah tells us to burn the leftovers. Thus, these are not “cop-outs,” but appropriate options for a Jew in these given circumstances. A "cop-out" would be something like, "well, we left some Passover meat overnight, so we must be eternal sinners. Let's throw everything out the window and turn to Thessalonians, the Quran, or the Bhagavad Gita."
#18
(07-24-2013, 10:48 AM)benyosef Wrote:
MessianicJew Wrote:That isn't part of a Passover, why do you dodge commands? And try to bring up stuff that isn't written…you're not even keeping it right, and you don't even need a Temple. When the command was given for all generations, a Temple was not a requirement….You’ve been sinning, you don’t need a Temple.
(07-24-2013, 10:48 AM)benyosef Wrote: You asked if I put blood on my doorposts and eat the goat with staff in hand. The Torah says the blood is to protect me when G-D smites Egypt, and the staff was because we were hours away from leaving Egypt. These elements were very much a part of the Passover in Egypt, but you somehow think they apply in all generations, so I asked if I am further lacking in my Passover observance—in your eyes—for not believing G-D will continue to smite Egypt every year and for not taking me out of Egypt.
I find this question from MessianicJew interesting in light of the fact that Yeshua, with the temple available, did not apply blood to the door posts on Passover either.

Luke 22:18-20; Mark 14:22-25; Matthew 26:26-29; In these NT passages, it appears that Yeshua is having a Passover seder with his disciples. He makes reference to the cup of wine to his blood, but doesn’t make reference to the blood on the door post which the Jews applied during the Exodus from Egypt. Why not make reference to the blood of the door post from the Passover lamb and his own blood? This is a perfect opportunity to connect both "bloods". I believe the reason why it wasn't done was because this was not an obligation to generations after the Exodus, otherwise, this would have been the perfect connection to his upcoming sacrifice on the cross and the fulfillment of the blood on the door posts. This agrees with current practice of Orthodox Jews around the world, and the practice of the Jews during the 2nd temple period.
#19
(07-24-2013, 10:48 AM)benyosef Wrote: so I asked if I am further lacking in my Passover observance—in your eyes—for not believing G-D will continue to smite Egypt every year and for not expecting Him to take me out of Egypt again.

What about forever doesn't mean forever now?

This is exactly what is wrong with Judaism, you don't read everything just parts.

(07-24-2013, 10:48 AM)benyosef Wrote: Presently, I cannot bring the Passover because the Passover is an offering (Numbers 9:13) and all offerings must be brought in the Temple (Deuteronomy 12:6-14). I am not sinning, but am physically incapable of doing everything.

A Passover is not an offering, you are to eat the lamb. Where are you getting this stuff?

(07-24-2013, 10:48 AM)benyosef Wrote: Does this mean I cannot do anything? Not at all. As I said earlier, the Jews between the Temples kept the Torah laws, despite not having the sacrificial services. Why didn’t they say, “well, we don’t have the Temple, so until we get it back, religion is on hold and we can act as we please?”

This is ironic, because you are saying you don't have the Temple. You are in the same exact circumstance as they are and yet you're saying religion is on hold until the 3rd Temple. Now, you're turning and saying they kept the law in-between Temples, but that you cannot keep the law in between Temples because you don't have a Temple.

Talk about screwed up logic.

(07-24-2013, 10:48 AM)benyosef Wrote: Similarly, in Exodus 12:10, the Torah tells us not to leave the Passover meat until morning. But, if some meat was left over, the Torah tells us to burn the leftovers. Thus, these are not “cop-outs,” but appropriate options for a Jew in these given circumstances. A "cop-out" would be something like, "well, we left some Passover meat overnight, so we must be eternal sinners. Let's throw everything out the window and turn to Thessalonians, the Quran, or the Bhagavad Gita."


Do you even cook the lamb with the entrails let alone eat it?
#20
MessianicJew Wrote:What about forever doesn't mean forever now?

“you shall keep it a feast to the L-RD throughout your generations; you shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever” (Exodus 12:14).
“therefore shall you observe this day in your generations by an ordinance forever” (v. 17)
“you shall observe this thing for an ordinance to you and to your sons forever: And it shall come to pass…that you shall keep this service. And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean you by this service? That you shall say, It is the sacrifice of the L-RD's Passover…” (v. 24-27)

We see that the day and its accompanying feast are written as being forever, not the sacrifice. Forever means forever, and the feast—the Seder—is kept until this very day. It does not say the sacrifice is forever, because there will be times when we can’t bring it. Like now.

MessianicJew Wrote:A Passover is not an offering, you are to eat the lamb…

First, most sacrifices are eaten. After the specified parts are brought on the Altar, the rest is eaten by the priests, and, in many cases, the owner, too.
Second, Numbers 9:13 calls the Passover lamb an offering. In case you forgot to look it up, here it is:
“But the man that…forbeareth to keep the Passover…shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of the L-RD in his appointed season…” (Numbers 9:13)

MessianicJew Wrote:This is ironic…You are in the same exact circumstance as they are and yet you're saying religion is on hold until the 3rd Temple. Now, you're turning and saying they kept the law in-between Temples, but that you cannot keep the law in between Temples because you don't have a Temple.

Ummmm….no. I said religion is NOT on hold, for we are still bound by the commandments which apply forever (Deuteronomy 29:29). Tanach shows how they kept Torah laws between the Temples. According to Christianity, who says we need a sacrificial system, why did they bother keeping the laws? They should have, according to you, said, “well, there’s no Temple, so let’s do whatever until it comes back.” They didn’t say this, and we don’t, either.

To reiterate what I said earlier: the lack of a Temple does not imply the relaxation of every law. Just as the laws of Shabbos only apply on Shabbos, so, too, the laws pertaining to the Temple and the services therein apply only when it is standing. King Solomon alluded to this era in his speech on the first day of the Temple (I Kings 8), when he said that when the Jews are exiled to enemy lands, they can still bring themselves close to G-D. This sentiment is echoed toward the end of Leviticus 26, when G-D says that when the Jews bring themselves back to G-D while in enemy lands, G-D will remember them.


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