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Issues with the NT
#1
I have stumbled upon the following few verses, and they got my interest.

Quote:“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18)

Quote:"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid. (Luke 16:17)

Quote:"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17)

Quote:“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19)

Quote:“For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17)

Quote:“...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35
Basically, my question to you is this.

After reading these verses, it is pretty clear that Jesus agrees that the Old Testament is the true word of God. He goes even further and says that we should fulfill these laws, and not ignore a single "iota" or "dot" from these laws.

But if that is true, Do the Jews for Jesus follow these laws?

Also another thing I was thinking to myself. If we know the Messiah needs to be a descendant of King David, how could it be that Jesus was both a descendant of David, and the son of God.
#2
Dantech, you ask an amazing question. The Hebrew Christian movement will tell you that, as an Orthodox Jew, you are practicing "Rabbinic Judaism," while they are "Scriptural Jews," a phrase they use to convey that A. their belief is Jewish in nature, not Christian, and B. their beliefs are rooted in the text, to the exclusion of the Oral Torah, which they maintain is not authoritative, and even potentially dangerous because of G-D warning the Jews not to add to the words of the Torah (Deut 4:2).

However, what do these "Messianic Jews" do to distinguish themselves from mainstream Christianity? Rabbinic traditions. If you were to go to a Hebrew Christian house of worship on a Firday night, you will see them light Shabbat candles, a concept not found in the Written Torah. They will make a blessing on the challot, another Oral Torah rule. Incidentally, you will not see them make the after-blessing, a law stated clearly in the Written Torah (Deut 8:10). They are not careful with the laws of family purity, of avoiding wool and linen garments, or even carrying on Shabbos, all of which are clearly found in the Torah. In short, anything they keep is Rabbinic, but they keep nothing Scriptural.

Some will tell you that Jesus fulfilled the laws for them, and so they no longer need to keep them. Others may say that they are impossible to keep. If so, then A. Why do they try to keep the Rabbinic laws at all? B. Where does the Torah say one person can, or will, fulfill the laws for anybody else? C. If they are impossible, why does the Torah tell us it is possible, and indeed in our best interests, to keep them (Deut 29:29) D. If the laws were forever abolished by Jesus, why does the Torah tell us that following the arrival of the real Messiah, the Jews will keep the Torah carefully (Ezk 37:24)? It seems, based on Mt 5 and Jn 7, that the concept of the Messiah fulfilling/abolishing the Torah was foreign to Jesus, but rather was a Church invention many years after his death. After all, if we could keep the Torah, which G-D promises brings life and good things (Deut 6:1-7, Lev 26:3-13), then we have no need for a crucified demigod who died for our sins. This is what prompted Paul, when writing to the Hebrews, to distort the words of Psalm 40. In Hb 10:5 he "quotes" Psalm 40:6: "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me." Yet when we examine the actual text of Psalm 40, it reads, "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened." Paul had to hide the fact that listening to G-D is superior to sacrifices (Hosea 6:6), and so changed the words to fit his agenda.
#3
(04-29-2013, 07:21 AM)dantech Wrote: After reading these verses, it is pretty clear that Jesus agrees that the Old Testament is the true word of God. He goes even further and says that we should fulfill these laws, and not ignore a single "iota" or "dot" from these laws.

But if that is true, Do the Jews for Jesus follow these laws?

Christ never said we should fulfill these laws. Christ said he fulfilled these laws.

(04-29-2013, 07:21 AM)dantech Wrote: Also another thing I was thinking to myself. If we know the Messiah needs to be a descendant of King David, how could it be that Jesus was both a descendant of David, and the son of God.

Because in the beginning Elohim placed Christ in the womb of Mary within King Davids lineage.
#4
(05-03-2013, 11:29 AM)benyosef Wrote: Some will tell you that Jesus fulfilled the laws for them, and so they no longer need to keep them. Others may say that they are impossible to keep. If so, then A. Why do they try to keep the Rabbinic laws at all? B. Where does the Torah say one person can, or will, fulfill the laws for anybody else? C. If they are impossible, why does the Torah tell us it is possible, and indeed in our best interests, to keep them (Deut 29:29) D. If the laws were forever abolished by Jesus, why does the Torah tell us that following the arrival of the real Messiah, the Jews will keep the Torah carefully (Ezk 37:24)? It seems, based on Mt 5 and Jn 7, that the concept of the Messiah fulfilling/abolishing the Torah was foreign to Jesus, but rather was a Church invention many years after his death. After all, if we could keep the Torah, which G-D promises brings life and good things (Deut 6:1-7, Lev 26:3-13), then we have no need for a crucified demigod who died for our sins. This is what prompted Paul, when writing to the Hebrews, to distort the words of Psalm 40. In Hb 10:5 he "quotes" Psalm 40:6: "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me." Yet when we examine the actual text of Psalm 40, it reads, "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened." Paul had to hide the fact that listening to G-D is superior to sacrifices (Hosea 6:6), and so changed the words to fit his agenda.

On Passover, do you go to a Seder? What exactly do you do on Passover?

If your brother died with no children, would you raise up seed with his wife?
#5
MessianicJew Wrote:On Passover, do you go to a Seder? What exactly do you do on Passover?
If your brother died with no children, would you raise up seed with his wife?

On Passover we fulfill many dozens of commandments that are still applicable nowadays. What is the nature of your questions here?

Why do you put such trust in a man (Paul) who willingly distorts the meaning of the Psalms?

And why do you say Jesus never taught to keep the Law? Surely you are familiar with the Sermon on the Mount:
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mt 5:19)
#6
(06-11-2013, 08:21 AM)benyosef Wrote: On Passover we fulfill many dozens of commandments that are still applicable nowadays. What is the nature of your questions here?

Anyone can say that. List them all. The nature of my question is to see how much of the law you keep on Passover. There isn't several dozen laws regarding passover, so you're already adding stuff.

(06-11-2013, 08:21 AM)benyosef Wrote: Why do you put such trust in a man (Paul) who willingly distorts the meaning of the Psalms?

Quote me saying 'I trust in Apostle Paul.' You judge or assume falsely.

(06-11-2013, 08:21 AM)benyosef Wrote: And why do you say Jesus never taught to keep the Law?

Quote me saying that.You simply haven't read my threads. Basically, anytime you want to try and say I said something. It is better to take the time to quote the person, it takes two seconds.

(06-11-2013, 08:21 AM)benyosef Wrote: Surely you are familiar with the Sermon on the Mount:
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mt 5:19)

Yes I'm familiar.
#7
(06-11-2013, 08:21 AM)benyosef Wrote: What is the nature of your questions here?

You never answered this one:

If your brother died with no children, would you raise up seed with his wife?
#8
MessianicJew Wrote:Anyone can say that. List them all. The nature of my question is to see how much of the law you keep on Passover. There isn't several dozen laws regarding passover, so you're already adding stuff.

The very fact that I have a Seder would raise your level of indignation over my Torah observance because there is no Written Torah source for a Seder; only that when we eat the Passover it should be with matza and bitter herbs, and thanks to the Romans (and the Jews’ sins) that is not presently possible. Thus, any list of the commandments I fulfill on Passover would be met with, “well, that’s not a command; it’s not written anywhere.”

MessianicJew Wrote:Quote me saying 'I trust in Apostle Paul.' You judge or assume falsely.

Although you may never have uttered the sentence “I trust in Paul,” it is clear to me that you do. First, you always refer to him as “Apostle Paul.” Second, in the thread “Hebrews: A Body You Have Prepared” you begin the discussion with a quote from Paul (Hb 10:4-7). Third, you have another thread defending Paul’s claim of Pharisee background entitled “Apostle Paul is a Jew.”
Unless you’re telling me you truly do not trust him. Is this what you’re getting to?

MessianicJew Wrote:You never answered this one: If your brother died with no children, would you raise up seed with his wife?

It should never happen in Israel, but, in the unfortunate event, probably chalitzah (Deut 25:7-10).

MessianicJew Wrote:Quote me saying [Jesus never taught to keep the Law].You simply haven't read my threads. Basically, anytime you want to try and say I said something. It is better to take the time to quote the person, it takes two seconds.

You got it:
(06-07-2013, 08:19 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: >>> Christ never said we should fulfill these laws. Christ said he fulfilled these laws. <<<
#9
(06-19-2013, 11:24 AM)benyosef Wrote: The very fact that I have a Seder would raise your level of indignation over my Torah observance because there is no Written Torah source for a Seder; only that when we eat the Passover it should be with matza and bitter herbs, and thanks to the Romans (and the Jews’ sins) that is not presently possible. Thus, any list of the commandments I fulfill on Passover would be met with, “well, that’s not a command; it’s not written anywhere.”

You don't truly keep a Passover then. Do you even take a lamb for your house in the 10th day of the month? What do you do?

(06-19-2013, 11:24 AM)benyosef Wrote: Although you may never have uttered the sentence “I trust in Paul,” it is clear to me that you do. First, you always refer to him as “Apostle Paul.” Second, in the thread “Hebrews: A Body You Have Prepared” you begin the discussion with a quote from Paul (Hb 10:4-7). Third, you have another thread defending Paul’s claim of Pharisee background entitled “Apostle Paul is a Jew.”
Unless you’re telling me you truly do not trust him. Is this what you’re getting to?

I trust in Christ to forgive me of my sins. As for Apostle Paul, I believe he is truthful so I trust what he says. That is a big difference.

(06-19-2013, 11:24 AM)benyosef Wrote: It should never happen in Israel, but, in the unfortunate event, probably chalitzah (Deut 25:7-10).

Unfortunate to happen and unfortunate for you. So you're telling me you would stand there while she loosen your shoe, and take a spit in the face and on top of it you would readily accept the name of 'The house of him that has his shoe loosed.'? You believe that Elohim expects this of an obedient Jew?

(06-19-2013, 11:24 AM)benyosef Wrote:
(06-07-2013, 08:19 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: >>> Christ never said we should fulfill these laws. Christ said he fulfilled these laws. <<<

We can't fulfill the laws, you don't even fulfill passover let alone would you raise up seed to your brothers house. And you're telling me about Torah?

Just because Christ fulfilled them doesn't mean I say Christ didn't teach us to keep them. Believing in Christ isn't a license to sin or something, and Christ did teach us to not sin. But the fulfillment of it all, that is in Christ.
#10
MessianicJew Wrote:You don't truly keep a Passover then. Do you even take a lamb for your house in the 10th day of the month? What do you do?

I do what I can. I put away leaven and eat unleavened bread for seven days (Exo 12:15), refrain from work on the first (v. 16) and seventh (Num 28:25) days, and I remember the day I left Egypt (Deut 16:3). Do I bring a Passover offering nowadays? No, for the Torah strictly forbids bringing the Passover outside the Temple:
“You may not sacrifice the passover within any of your gates, which the L-RD your G-D gives you, but at the place which the L-RD your G-D shall choose to place His name in, there you shall sacrifice the Passover...And you shall roast and eat it in the place which the L-RD your G-D shall choose...” (Deut 16:5-7)

MessianicJew Wrote:I trust in [Jesus] to forgive me of my sins. As for Apostle Paul, I believe he is truthful so I trust what he says. That is a big difference.

I understand the difference, but I did not ask if you trust in Paul to die for your sins. I asked why you put any trust in a man who willfully distorts the words and messages of the Psalms to fit his agenda.

MessianicJew Wrote:So you're telling me you would stand there while she loosen your shoe…You believe that Elohim expects this of an obedient Jew?

Of course! G-D says this is a valid choice in this situation for Jews loyal to the Torah.

MessianicJew Wrote:We can't fulfill the laws

“For this commandment which I command you this day, it is not hidden from you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh to you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it.” (Deut 30:11-14)

If we can't, why does Ecclesiastes say it is the whole of man (12:13)?

Those who say the laws are impossible to fulfill are those who have never done so, and probably never tried to, in their lives.

MessianicJew Wrote:Just because [Jesus] fulfilled them doesn't mean I say [Jesus] didn't teach us to keep them.

Then you need to take that up with the one who said “[Jesus] never said we should fulfill these laws.”

MessianicJew Wrote:Believing in [Jesus] isn't a license to sin…

I don't think I took that position, but since you brought it up: maybe in theory you are correct, but if one believes that J died for your past, present, and future sins, then what’s stopping a Christian from sin? Especially if one holds Paul’s position on faith without works (Gal 3).


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