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Angelic Beings - Information Requested
#21
(12-26-2013, 07:22 AM)IamBenny Wrote:
(12-20-2013, 04:01 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(12-20-2013, 03:39 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(12-20-2013, 03:31 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: Nachshon wrote
Nothing in Tanakh talks about angelic wars. You might be referring to books of the Apocypha which are not authoritative but interesting to read.


Archangel Michael and Satan against each other.
In Daniel 10 we see a battle take place between Demon Princes and Angels.
This chapter explains that Daniel was in mourning for three weeks and ate no meat or wine. During this time he receives a visit from an Angel of God. The Angel speaks these words to him.

13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future...

and again in Daniel 10:20-21

20 Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come;
21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

Here we see that God sent an Angel to Daniel to explain a vision that he had received, the Angel had to fight the Prince of Persia for 21 days and needed the assistance of Michael to enable him to overcome this Demonic Prince in order to talk to Daniel. He also had to fight him again on his return. This shows us that there are Demonic Princes set over geographical areas, in this case Persia and Greece are mentioned.
Satan (adversaries) nor demons are mentioned in these verses. You're reading into these verses pre-conceived notions. Bye.
Lord reveal Satan to Nachshon!

God has Angels fighting satanick forces in al countries...
Tanakh doesn't say anything about this.
#22
In the Hebrew Bible, satan, is actually a noun from a verb meaning primarily to, “obstruct, oppose,” as it is found in Numbers 22:22, 1 Samuel 29:4, Psalms 109:6. Ha-Satan is originally translated as “the accuser,” or “the adversary.” The defining additive “ha-,”in English translates “the,"and is used to show that this is a title bestowed on a being, versus the name of a being. Thus this being would be referred to as “the satan.”

There are Thirteen occurrences of Ha-satan

Ha-Satan occurs 13 times in the Masoretic Text, in two books of the Hebrew Bible:
Job ch.1–2 (10x),[8]
Zechariah 3:1–2 (3x).[9]

Satan without ha is used in 10 instances, of which two are translated diabolos in the Septuagint and "Satan" in the King James Version:
1 Chronicles 21:1, "Satan stood up against Israel" Psalm 109:6b "and let Satan stand at his right hand"

The other eight instances of satan without the additive "ha "are traditionally translated (in Greek, Latin and English) as "an adversary," etc., and taken to be human or obedient angels:
Numbers 22:22,32 "and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him."
32 "behold, I went out to withstand thee,"
1 Samuel 29:4 The Philistines say: "lest he [David] be an adversary against us"
2 Samuel 19:22 David says: "[you sons of Zeruaiah] should this day be adversaries (plural) unto me?"
1 Kings 5:4 Solomon writes to Hiram: "there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent."
1 Kings 11:14 "And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite"
1 Kings 11:23 "And G-D stirred him up an adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah"
25 "And he [Rezon] was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon"

In the Book of Job;


Satan definitely pours out the plagues upon Job,
In the Book of Job, ha-Satan is a member of the Divine Council, "the fallen sons of G-D" who are subservient to G-D. Ha-Satan, in this capacity, is many times translated in the Hebrew sense as "the prosecutor", and is charged by YHVH to tempt humans and to report back to YHVH all who go against His decrees, though I believe Satan is a fallen angel, as expounded upon by the book of Enoch, which I believe in original form is true..

At the beginning of the book, Job is a righteous man before YHVH"who feared G-D and turned away from evil" (Job 1:1), and has therefore been rewarded by G-D. When the Divine Council meets, G-D informs ha-Satan about Job's blameless, morally upright character. Between Job 1:9–10 and 2:4–5, ha-Satan merely points out that God has given Job everything that a man could want, so by doing so, Job would be loyal to G-D; satan says to G-D; if all Job has been given, even his health, were to be taken away from him, however, his faith would collapse.

Hashem therefore grants ha-Satan the chance to test Job. Due to this, it has been interpreted that ha-Satan is under Hashem's authority ,and cannot act without Hashem's permission. satan's presence is further shown in the epilogue of Job in which God is speaking to Job, ha-Satan is absent from these dialogues. "For Job, for [Job's] friends, and for the narrator, it is ultimately Yahweh himself who ha allowed Job's suffering; as Yahweh says to the 'satan', 'You have incited me against him, to destroy him for no reason.'" (Job 2:3)

Hashem has created all things, even satan, but I believe in the creation of good, evil became in form. satan is opposite from Good, and YHVH is not responsible , or evil, but only allows man to suffer from their own actions; that man may know what he originally chose; the word of the serpent , instead of YHVH; Genesis 3:1-13.

To say satan doesn't exist is biblically unsound doctrine. But yet YHVH has allowed satan to tempt man, regardless of obedience, for Hashems ultimate Good Will for mankind. From the tempering of fire, and pain is man perfected in self will, as gold that rises to the surface of the refiners cauldron; that the refiner knows His work is finished when He see's his image in the gold that has rising from the un precious metal, so does YHVH temper man, that His Image may be seen in Him.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

Still in defense of my words Genesis does not mention G-D creating darkness? only separating light from darkness. I believe darkness already existed before God created light (Genesis 1:2-3), God created light, darkness is simply the absence of light. We see this pattern repeatedly in the world, for example: Cold is not "something", it is a lack of heat, dryness is simply the absence of wetness, and ignorance is the lack of knowledge, it sounds awkward to say that knowledge is the lack of ignorance.

I believe evil was formed by the result of creating good G-D is Good. But to say satan is not a force , or seed of evil, to be removed one day in the future from man is incorrect. Revelation 13;1 Daniel 7:2,7
Revelation 12:7 Daniel 10:13,21 Daniel 12:11 Genesis 3:15 .

If satan does not exist , who then is the serpent.All things have a purpose for Creation, some vessels for honor, and some for dishonor. There is heaven, and sheol, or hell. Daniel 12:1 Daniel 12:22 There of angels of Light, and angels of darkness, yet all are held under authority to YHVH.

That time of sorrow of Jacob is near, and in sorrow so shall all mankind know who G-D, and Meshiach, and satan is; who shall live everlasting, and who will not. The G-D YHVH; G-D of Israel, is G-D of all Heaven , and earth. What Master do you serve? Hebrews 2:7-9
#23
(12-30-2013, 08:14 AM)Azriel Wrote: If satan does not exist , who then is the serpent.All things have a purpose for Creation, some vessels for honor, and some for dishonor. There is heaven, and sheol, or hell. Daniel 12:1 Daniel 12:22 There of angels of Light, and angels of darkness, yet all are held under authority to YHVH.
I didn't say "satan" doesn't exist, but is shown in several places as being human adversaries. Our biggest adversary is ourselves. We bring sin and death upon ourselves. I believe the serpent in the garden was mankind's own mind enticing us to sin (metaphor), making us believe we are G-d, and that we can live even though we sin. I believe the "satan" in Job is also a metaphor for ourselves trying to "make a deal" with G-d. I've probably said too much, so I'll cut it here.
#24
(12-30-2013, 09:05 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(12-30-2013, 08:14 AM)Azriel Wrote: If satan does not exist , who then is the serpent.All things have a purpose for Creation, some vessels for honor, and some for dishonor. There is heaven, and sheol, or hell. Daniel 12:1 Daniel 12:22 There of angels of Light, and angels of darkness, yet all are held under authority to YHVH.
I didn't say "satan" doesn't exist, but is shown in several places as being human adversaries. Our biggest adversary is ourselves. We bring sin and death upon ourselves. I believe the serpent in the garden was mankind's own mind enticing us to sin (metaphor), making us believe we are G-d, and that we can live even though we sin. I believe the "satan" in Job is also a metaphor for ourselves trying to "make a deal" with G-d. I've probably said too much, so I'll cut it here.
Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
#25
(12-31-2013, 06:18 AM)IamBenny Wrote:
(12-30-2013, 09:05 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(12-30-2013, 08:14 AM)Azriel Wrote: If satan does not exist , who then is the serpent.All things have a purpose for Creation, some vessels for honor, and some for dishonor. There is heaven, and sheol, or hell. Daniel 12:1 Daniel 12:22 There of angels of Light, and angels of darkness, yet all are held under authority to YHVH.
I didn't say "satan" doesn't exist, but is shown in several places as being human adversaries. Our biggest adversary is ourselves. We bring sin and death upon ourselves. I believe the serpent in the garden was mankind's own mind enticing us to sin (metaphor), making us believe we are G-d, and that we can live even though we sin. I believe the "satan" in Job is also a metaphor for ourselves trying to "make a deal" with G-d. I've probably said too much, so I'll cut it here.
Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
This doesn't show anything, Benny. What do you think this proves?
#26
(12-31-2013, 08:20 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(12-31-2013, 06:18 AM)IamBenny Wrote:
(12-30-2013, 09:05 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(12-30-2013, 08:14 AM)Azriel Wrote: If satan does not exist , who then is the serpent.All things have a purpose for Creation, some vessels for honor, and some for dishonor. There is heaven, and sheol, or hell. Daniel 12:1 Daniel 12:22 There of angels of Light, and angels of darkness, yet all are held under authority to YHVH.
I didn't say "satan" doesn't exist, but is shown in several places as being human adversaries. Our biggest adversary is ourselves. We bring sin and death upon ourselves. I believe the serpent in the garden was mankind's own mind enticing us to sin (metaphor), making us believe we are G-d, and that we can live even though we sin. I believe the "satan" in Job is also a metaphor for ourselves trying to "make a deal" with G-d. I've probably said too much, so I'll cut it here.
Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
This doesn't show anything, Benny. What do you think this proves?

It prove satan the devil exist..
You don't seem to know much about Gods Word. The only things you can do is to ask us to look up verses you think are important, why don't you post the verses instead of wasting our time...May YHVH Jesus Christ be with you...
#27
(12-31-2013, 10:33 AM)IamBenny Wrote: It prove satan the devil exist..
You don't seem to know much about Gods Word. The only things you can do is to ask us to look up verses you think are important, why don't you post the verses instead of wasting our time...May YHVH Jesus Christ be with you...
I never said that the satan, the adversary doesn't exist. Only that we are "the satans", and our worst enemies.

If I'm wasting your time, don't reply. I usually provide references. The new tool online provides the actual verse content without needing to copy them.
#28
(12-31-2013, 10:56 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(12-31-2013, 10:33 AM)IamBenny Wrote: It prove satan the devil exist..
You don't seem to know much about Gods Word. The only things you can do is to ask us to look up verses you think are important, why don't you post the verses instead of wasting our time...May YHVH Jesus Christ be with you...
I never said that the satan, the adversary doesn't exist. Only that we are "the satans", and our worst enemies.

If I'm wasting your time, don't reply. I usually provide references. The new tool online provides the actual verse content without needing to copy them.
You and everyone that don't believe in Yeshua. Belong to satan...
Christians belong to GOD...You don't believe the NT and it came from GOD...
Wake up to the fact. And come with us to Heaven...We have proved that God is one SPIRIT. Yeshua was there, because the Father could not come to Earth. The univers is like a box. Most of God the Farther is outside. Because the univers can not contain Him...
#29
(12-31-2013, 04:24 PM)IamBenny Wrote: You and everyone that don't believe in Yeshua. Belong to satan...
Christians belong to GOD...You don't believe the NT and it came from GOD...
Do you have anything of substance to share? Next...

(12-31-2013, 04:24 PM)IamBenny Wrote: Wake up to the fact. And come with us to Heaven...We have proved that God is one SPIRIT. Yeshua was there, because the Father could not come to Earth. The univers is like a box. Most of God the Farther is outside. Because the univers can not contain Him...
If the universe cannot contain G-d, then man cannot contain Him. It's a contradiction.
#30
(12-30-2013, 09:05 AM)Nachshon Wrote: I didn't say "satan" doesn't exist, but is shown in several places as being human adversaries. Our biggest adversary is ourselves. We bring sin and death upon ourselves. I believe the serpent in the garden was mankind's own mind enticing us to sin (metaphor), making us believe we are G-d, and that we can live even though we sin. I believe the "satan" in Job is also a metaphor for ourselves trying to "make a deal" with G-d. I've probably said too much, so I'll cut it here.
I certainly agree to a point ,and in part you are right ,but satan does exist, as the angels exists. he is not just made up within our own imagination, though mans imagination has led him into destruction. I agree also that satan is an adversary of man, and man is an adversary of himself..satan only tempts man to make the wrong decisions. To say satan was an accident, or man's sin was mistakenly begun by evil, ,would be saying YHVH made a mistake. G-D never makes mistakes. We cannot understand the Mind of Hashem, or the reason He has allowed evil to continue upon the earth. It is for the creation of mans free will, to be cast in the Image of the Creator.

One day in the tempering of mans own identity evil shall diminish, and good shall prevail. We see this in Israel, falling from good, yet by the consequences of their action through their history draws them nearer to YHVH. He will never stop until Israel ;His chosen above all men, is brought to perfection.

I believe YHVH placed both good and evil before man, to which man choose sin. We cannot fully understand at this time why Hashem allowed so much pain and sorrow to befall man, or why He allowed satan to tempt man, especially when innocent children are harmed by evil. but in our finality we will understand when true joy falls upon us, and we are united with our loved ones.. G-D did not choose for man, it was indeed mans choice. I believe the pain and evil man has expounded upon in this world too many times, is blamed on satan, instead of people taking the responsibility of their own decisions.

Still I believe as you said; Angels have their own identity, and reasoning,I believe it is why satan fell to earth, and the fallen angels cast into the universe.. Yet Hashem knew satans mind before challenged G-D, and knows our decisions before we make them. I suppose you could say their is a double predestination for man.YHVH directs man, but allows man to choose his path, to some He interacts with, and persuages their path and some He withdrawls from leaving them to their own sin nature; YHVH being the Author of time knows our future but allows us to still make choices. If not prophesy could not exist. I know it might sounds harsh to say evil as well as good both have their reasons, to lead man to Hashems ultimate plan for good.

(12-31-2013, 04:58 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(12-31-2013, 04:24 PM)IamBenny Wrote: You and everyone that don't believe in Yeshua. Belong to satan...
Christians belong to GOD...You don't believe the NT and it came from GOD...
Do you have anything of substance to share? Next...

(12-31-2013, 04:24 PM)IamBenny Wrote: Wake up to the fact. And come with us to Heaven...We have proved that God is one SPIRIT. Yeshua was there, because the Father could not come to Earth. The univers is like a box. Most of God the Farther is outside. Because the univers can not contain Him...
If the universe cannot contain G-d, then man cannot contain Him. It's a contradiction.
One man cannot contain Hashem ,or the universe, but Hashem can contain all of one man, and the universe within Himself.

Zephaniah 3:5

Zephaniah 3:9


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