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Descendent of David
#11
(08-13-2013, 01:10 PM)benyosef Wrote: Hi, MJ. I see you're still very much involved in your favorite hobby, namely asking Jews why we don't bring sacrifices today. Keep in mind that even though the Torah says the laws are applicable forever (Deut 29 and 30, for example), this does not mean that every single one can be performed at every single moment from Sinai until now.

And once again, you can't answer about Passover, because the Temple was not a requirement for it. Every man is suppose to take a lamb and eat it! There is absolutely nothing to do with the Temple. That was an idea of Solomon that came much later.
#12
(08-16-2013, 04:19 PM)dantech Wrote:
(08-13-2013, 09:41 AM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(06-17-2013, 01:36 PM)Benjamin_Mizrahi Wrote: Hello everyone.

As an orthodox Jew ,


Hello,

How much of the below do you keep?
Leviticus 23
23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

26 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the Lord your God.

29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.

31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

Here we go again...

Hey MJ, why don't you ask this question another 300 times to see if our answers changed? (Go ahead, call me a liar because I said 300 times when really, I shouldn't be sarcastic)

I don't even understand why Benyosef is still humoring you with replies which clearly explain why you're in the wrong...

Benyosef, Nachshon and you are wrong.

The Passover was given before the Temple.

21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.

22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.

23 For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.

Gee, was there a Temple? No. You say the Temple was required, it wasn't.
#13
(08-16-2013, 04:19 PM)dantech Wrote: Here we go again...

Hey MJ, why don't you ask this question another 300 times to see if our answers changed? (Go ahead, call me a liar because I said 300 times when really, I shouldn't be sarcastic)

I don't even understand why Benyosef is still humoring you with replies which clearly explain why you're in the wrong...

2 Chronicles 35:6
So kill the passover, and sanctify yourselves, and prepare your brethren, that they may do according to the word of the Lord by the hand of Moses.

'by the hand of Moses'...with no Temple.
#14
(08-17-2013, 12:03 PM)A. Bird Wrote:
(07-14-2013, 08:56 PM)David S Wrote: Hi Benjamin,

I just have one problem with your analysis...you set up a scenario in which you believe in the virgin birth. And then point out that it would make him not a descendent of David from Joseph's line...listen if Yeshua was born of a virgin that would make Yeshua the son of G-d! so your conditions for your question presuppose that Yeshua was the messiah...and makes the rest of your question irrelevant.

David

This should settle the matter.
There is a commandment to procreate, Gen 1:28, so there is nothing wrong with messiah being born from a man.

Gen 35:11 - kings will come from Abraham's loins, even Messiah.
Gen 46:26 - all of Israel comes from Jacob's loins.
Isa 11:1 - fruit comes from Jesse's root, even Messiah.

The Hebrew word for root is Shoresh in Isa 11:1, which is associated with a chain in 1 Kings 7:17.

What's the connection? If the Messiah from the tribe of David is not born from the loins of a man, then Hashem has broken his promise to the patriarchs. The chain of the dynasty breaks without a physical, natural descent from David. Adoption would break this chain, or even artificial/supernatural insemination.

Even the kings of Israel/Messiah must have children and be married in line with the law of Kings in Deut 17:14-20. There is nothing supernatural going on.
#15
(08-17-2013, 12:03 PM)A. Bird Wrote:
(07-14-2013, 08:56 PM)David S Wrote: I just have one problem with your analysis...you set up a scenario in which you believe in the virgin birth. And then point out that it would make him not a descendent of David from Joseph's line...listen if Yeshua was born of a virgin that would make Yeshua the son of G-d! so your conditions for your question presuppose that Yeshua was the messiah...and makes the rest of your question irrelevant.

This should settle the matter.

Yet it doesn't. Benjamin is not saying the "virgin birth" story is accurate, but explaining why, if true, it does not prove J's connection to the Davidic throne. There are a few implied questions:
If tribal affiliation follows the father, how do you know from which tribe G-D is?
If the Messiah is supposed to be the literal, biological son of G-D, why does G-D tell David that all kings in Judah will come from him beginning with Solomon?
If the Messiah is supposed to be the literal son of G-D, why do we have explicit verses telling us about kings descended from David, but no verses telling us about kings from G-D?
If J's connection through Mary is through the wrong son of David, how does that help his claim to Messiahship?
If J's connection through Joseph is through a cursed line and through adoption, how does that help his claim to Messiahship?
#16
Smile My goodness, I'm tempted to short circuit this by saying:
Y'shua is alive, if you humble yourself, bow the knee before God's anointed King, draw near to Him, He will draw near to you, then you will easily be able to fill the gaps and more!
Nonetheless, let me make a half hearted attempt at some of this.

(08-18-2013, 11:56 AM)benyosef Wrote: If tribal affiliation follows the father, how do you know from which tribe G-D is?

Why do you write God without the "o"? If it is because of reverence, how do you justify asking such a question?
You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!

(08-18-2013, 11:56 AM)benyosef Wrote: If the Messiah is supposed to be the literal, biological son of G-D, why does G-D tell David that all kings in Judah will come from him beginning with Solomon?

Two mistaken assumptions in this question:
1. "biological son of G-D" God is not flesh.
2. "...G-D tell David that all kings in Judah will come from him..." Go read again and quote correctly.

(08-18-2013, 11:56 AM)benyosef Wrote: If the Messiah is supposed to be the literal son of G-D, why do we have explicit verses telling us about kings descended from David, but no verses telling us about kings from G-D?

I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son (says God of the King). When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.
#17
(08-17-2013, 09:57 PM)Nachshon Wrote: There is a commandment to procreate, Gen 1:28, so there is nothing wrong with messiah being born from a man.

Gen 35:11 - kings will come from Abraham's loins, even Messiah.
Gen 46:26 - all of Israel comes from Jacob's loins.
Isa 11:1 - fruit comes from Jesse's root, even Messiah.

The Hebrew word for root is Shoresh in Isa 11:1, which is associated with a chain in 1 Kings 7:17.

What's the connection? If the Messiah from the tribe of David is not born from the loins of a man, then Hashem has broken his promise to the patriarchs. The chain of the dynasty breaks without a physical, natural descent from David. Adoption would break this chain, or even artificial/supernatural insemination.

Even the kings of Israel/Messiah must have children and be married in line with the law of Kings in Deut 17:14-20. There is nothing supernatural going on.

If, like you say, "There is nothing supernatural going on."
-It should be enough for you to accept that our Lord and Saviour Y'shua was the son of Joseph.
You can build on that and be sure that for you and your house there will never be anything supernatural about Him. Your Messiah will only ever be a vision of His naked bruised body hanging on a cross.
-Or you could wait for some other messiah whose genealogy you would somehow trace so that you can crown him, of course only in order for your grandchildren to later bury him, so he can rot with the rest.
-Or he will live for about a thousand years (not supernaturaly of course) and your grandchildren could trim his beard for days to come in your messianic age.

But if, like you say, "Hashem has broken his promise to the patriarchs." Well then you, Nachshon, will have to take Hashem to court to judge between you and Him. I wish you all of the best with this. If you plan to make such allegations and you are found to be in the wrong... come talk to me, I have a way out for you.
#18
(08-19-2013, 02:58 AM)A. Bird Wrote:
(08-17-2013, 09:57 PM)Nachshon Wrote: There is a commandment to procreate, Gen 1:28, so there is nothing wrong with messiah being born from a man.

Gen 35:11 - kings will come from Abraham's loins, even Messiah.
Gen 46:26 - all of Israel comes from Jacob's loins.
Isa 11:1 - fruit comes from Jesse's root, even Messiah.

The Hebrew word for root is Shoresh in Isa 11:1, which is associated with a chain in 1 Kings 7:17.

What's the connection? If the Messiah from the tribe of David is not born from the loins of a man, then Hashem has broken his promise to the patriarchs. The chain of the dynasty breaks without a physical, natural descent from David. Adoption would break this chain, or even artificial/supernatural insemination.

Even the kings of Israel/Messiah must have children and be married in line with the law of Kings in Deut 17:14-20. There is nothing supernatural going on.

If, like you say, "There is nothing supernatural going on."
-It should be enough for you to accept that our Lord and Saviour Y'shua was the son of Joseph.
You can build on that and be sure that for you and your house there will never be anything supernatural about Him. Your Messiah will only ever be a vision of His naked bruised body hanging on a cross.
-Or you could wait for some other messiah whose genealogy you would somehow trace so that you can crown him, of course only in order for your grandchildren to later bury him, so he can rot with the rest.
-Or he will live for about a thousand years (not supernaturaly of course) and your grandchildren could trim his beard for days to come in your messianic age.

But if, like you say, "Hashem has broken his promise to the patriarchs." Well then you, Nachshon, will have to take Hashem to court to judge between you and Him. I wish you all of the best with this. If you plan to make such allegations and you are found to be wrong... come talk to me, I have a way out for you.
The point is Hashem hasn't broken His promises to Israel, so I know He is faithful to abide by His words as stated in my previous post.

So, if you can't speak to the verses, I understand why.
#19
(08-17-2013, 07:17 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 04:19 PM)dantech Wrote: Here we go again...

Hey MJ, why don't you ask this question another 300 times to see if our answers changed? (Go ahead, call me a liar because I said 300 times when really, I shouldn't be sarcastic)

I don't even understand why Benyosef is still humoring you with replies which clearly explain why you're in the wrong...

2 Chronicles 35:6
So kill the passover, and sanctify yourselves, and prepare your brethren, that they may do according to the word of the Lord by the hand of Moses.

'by the hand of Moses'...with no Temple.
Did you even bother to read 2 Chronicles 35:1-5 before verse 6? It says there was a temple, and an altar 2 Chronicles 35:11. It's all in English too.
#20
(08-19-2013, 06:45 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
A. Bird dateline=' Wrote: If, like you say, "There is nothing supernatural going on."
-It should be enough for you to accept that our Lord and Saviour Y'shua was the son of Joseph.
You can build on that and be sure that for you and your house there will never be anything supernatural about Him. Your Messiah will only ever be a vision of His naked bruised body hanging on a cross.
-Or you could wait for some other messiah whose genealogy you would somehow trace so that you can crown him, of course only in order for your grandchildren to later bury him, so he can rot with the rest.
-Or he will live for about a thousand years (not supernaturaly of course) and your grandchildren could trim his beard for days to come in your messianic age.

But if, like you say, "Hashem has broken his promise to the patriarchs." Well then you, Nachshon, will have to take Hashem to court to judge between you and Him. I wish you all of the best with this. If you plan to make such allegations and you are found to be wrong... come talk to me, I have a way out for you.
The point is Hashem hasn't broken His promises to Israel, so I know He is faithful to abide by His words as stated in my previous post.

So, if you can't speak to the verses, I understand why.

Don't hide behind the verses, I'm speaking to you.
I've played out for you all the options left open for you, considering your interpretation of scripture- I've taken you very seriously.
Now tell me about the natural messiah you're expecting.


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