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Descendent of David
#21
(08-22-2013, 04:35 AM)A. Bird Wrote:
(08-19-2013, 06:45 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
A. Bird dateline=' Wrote: If, like you say, "There is nothing supernatural going on."
-It should be enough for you to accept that our Lord and Saviour Y'shua was the son of Joseph.
You can build on that and be sure that for you and your house there will never be anything supernatural about Him. Your Messiah will only ever be a vision of His naked bruised body hanging on a cross.
-Or you could wait for some other messiah whose genealogy you would somehow trace so that you can crown him, of course only in order for your grandchildren to later bury him, so he can rot with the rest.
-Or he will live for about a thousand years (not supernaturaly of course) and your grandchildren could trim his beard for days to come in your messianic age.

But if, like you say, "Hashem has broken his promise to the patriarchs." Well then you, Nachshon, will have to take Hashem to court to judge between you and Him. I wish you all of the best with this. If you plan to make such allegations and you are found to be wrong... come talk to me, I have a way out for you.
The point is Hashem hasn't broken His promises to Israel, so I know He is faithful to abide by His words as stated in my previous post.

So, if you can't speak to the verses, I understand why.

Don't hide behind the verses, I'm speaking to you.
I've played out for you all the options left open for you, considering your interpretation of scripture- I've taken you very seriously.
Now tell me about the natural messiah you're expecting.
Sure, Deut 17:14-20 lays out that all kings marry, have children, and hand the throne to their children.

It looks like they die as well as verse 19 says "all the day of your life".

I don't trust the genealogies in the NT, so I can't say if Joseph is Yeshua'a father. So, I don't believe in a dead, crucified messiah.

So, the messiah is still to come, and will be a mortal. Since people in Genesis lived close to a thousand years, people in the future may as well. Nothing supernatural going on here.

Since you believe Yeshua is messiah, can you tell me how he fulfills the law of kings in Deut 17:14-20 and Matt 22:30, since he wasn't married, right?, and had children right?, and created new gods for the godhead, right? I'm speaking to you as well, "A. Bird".
#22
(08-22-2013, 06:43 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Sure, Deut 17:14-20 lays out that all kings marry, have children, and hand the throne to their children.

It looks like they die as well as verse 19 says "all the day of your life".

I don't trust the genealogies in the NT, so I can't say if Joseph is Yeshua'a father. So, I don't believe in a dead, crucified messiah.

So, the messiah is still to come, and will be a mortal. Since people in Genesis lived close to a thousand years, people in the future may as well. Nothing supernatural going on here.

Since you believe Yeshua is messiah, can you tell me how he fulfills the law of kings in Deut 17:14-20 and Matt 22:30, since he wasn't married, right?, and had children right?, and created new gods for the godhead, right? I'm speaking to you as well, "A. Bird".

Thank you, thats better.
So, will your messiah be one amongst many who become so old or will he be the only one?
Will, people getting older, be a sign that your messiah is near?
Can you shed any light on how how old he will get? Is there some indication on how he will die?

I'm sorry I don't understand your question(s).
#23
(08-23-2013, 01:33 PM)A. Bird Wrote:
(08-22-2013, 06:43 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Sure, Deut 17:14-20 lays out that all kings marry, have children, and hand the throne to their children.

It looks like they die as well as verse 19 says "all the day of your life".

I don't trust the genealogies in the NT, so I can't say if Joseph is Yeshua'a father. So, I don't believe in a dead, crucified messiah.

So, the messiah is still to come, and will be a mortal. Since people in Genesis lived close to a thousand years, people in the future may as well. Nothing supernatural going on here.

Since you believe Yeshua is messiah, can you tell me how he fulfills the law of kings in Deut 17:14-20 and Matt 22:30, since he wasn't married, right?, and had children right?, and created new gods for the godhead, right? I'm speaking to you as well, "A. Bird".

Thank you, thats better.
So, will your messiah be one amongst many who become so old or will he be the only one?
Will, people getting older, be a sign that your messiah is near?
Can you shed any light on how how old he will get? Is there some indication on how he will die?

I'm sorry I don't understand your question(s).
Messiah will be a mortal. It doesn't matter if he lives longer than others because he is not G-d in Jewish thinking. I think I've answered this question and I'll wait for your answers below.

1) If Yeshua/J-sus is to reign as King Messiah, he will have to comply with the laws as layed out in Deut 17:14-20, which says he writes copies of the Torah, rules by it, marries, and has children.

2) Yeshua says in Matthew 22:30, in the resurrection there is no marriage. We know Yeshua, by Christian accounts, did not marry during his earthly life. So, based on the verse above in Matthew 22:30, he will not marry in the future or have children. In this case, he can never fulfill Deut 17:14-20, and can never be messiah king.

3) If Yeshua did/does have children, then the children will also be gods and be part of the godhead, so there is an increase in the trinity. Would Yeshua marry another virgin to mate with to fulfill Isa 7:14 too? Besides this being a contradiction in Jewish thinking, it definitely is in Christian thinking.
#24
It is very important that you answer the questions I've asked because there are some people who are also waiting for a messiah like you and for them it might be important to know:
How much longer than other people will the messiah live? Or will everybody live that long? How long?
It is not like you say: "It doesn't matter if he lives longer than others..." because it might mean that your messiahnic-age will be much shorter than expected. And when he dies, what then? You must explain these things for those who wait with you. Do you have some sort of an estimate of when he might arrive?

Thank you for clarifying your questions, I think I understand them better now, let me try and answer you.

1.) I'll have to point out that your understanding of Deut 17 as being messianic, is fantastic! It is the first time I hear this. I can, however, point you to the next chapter of that same book, there you'll find messianic verses in 18 and 19, consider them carefully.

2.) Firstly, I find it very big of you to acknowledge our Lord's resurrection. Even you can rise from the dead if you wished to.
With regards to our Lord's children, well you've stumbled upon a very pensive Christian thought.
"Sing, barren woman, you who never bore a child; burst into song, shout for joy, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband," says the Lord.
and
For those whom HE foreknew HE also predestined to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, so that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom HE predestined HE also called, and those whom HE called HE also justified, and those whom HE justified HE also glorified.
If God is for us, who can be against us? HE who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will HE not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Messiah Y'shua is the one who died—more than that, who was raised!—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.


3.) I still don't understand this question of yours so well. What do you mean with "trinity" and "godhead" and "mate"?
I must also point out to you that God is one.
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. But maybe your trinity allows for this...?
#25
(08-27-2013, 10:30 AM)A. Bird Wrote: Thank you for clarifying your questions, I think I understand them better now, let me try and answer you.

1.) I'll have to point out that your understanding of Deut 17 as being messianic, is fantastic! It is the first time I hear this. I can, however, point you to the next chapter of that same book, there you'll find messianic verses in 18 and 19, consider them carefully.

2.) Firstly, I find it very big of you to acknowledge our Lord's resurrection. Even you can rise from the dead if you wished to.
With regards to our Lord's children, well you've stumbled upon a very pensive Christian thought.
"Sing, barren woman, you who never bore a child; burst into song, shout for joy, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband," says the Lord.
and
For those whom HE foreknew HE also predestined to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, so that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom HE predestined HE also called, and those whom HE called HE also justified, and those whom HE justified HE also glorified.
If God is for us, who can be against us? HE who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will HE not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Messiah Y'shua is the one who died—more than that, who was raised!—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.


3.) I still don't understand this question of yours so well. What do you mean with "trinity" and "godhead" and "mate"?
I must also point out to you that God is one.
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. But maybe your trinity allows for this...?
1) The Torah applies in the messianic kingdom. Deut 17:14-20 certainly does. You'll like Isa 53:10 also because the servant has children, whatever your understadning of the servant is.

2) I didn't acknowledge Yeshua's resurrection, but used his teaching as a point of contradiction. If he's resurrected, then he can't fulfill Torah in Deut 17:14-20 since he's supposed to be king. If he's dead, then he didn't complete Torah for kings. If he was god and didn't procreate, then he didn't fulfill Torah for kings. 3 strikes - he's out!

3) I don't believe in a trinity/trunity/modality/separate personalities that are one. Do you?
#26
(08-28-2013, 09:59 PM)Nachshon Wrote: 1) The Torah applies in the messianic kingdom. Deut 17:14-20 certainly does. You'll like Isa 53:10 also because the servant has children, whatever your understadning of the servant is.

My dear friend, you try so hard to disprove our Lord Y'shua's messiahship that you forget that it is also written:
The LORD is King; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.,
The LORD is King, let the nations tremble; he sits enthroned between the cherubim, let the earth shake. and
The LORD has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all.
Or do you want to correct the psalmist also?

About the verse you mentioned:
Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
It is clear.

(08-28-2013, 09:59 PM)Nachshon Wrote: 2) I didn't acknowledge Yeshua's resurrection, but used his teaching as a point of contradiction. If he's resurrected, then he can't fulfill Torah in Deut 17:14-20 since he's supposed to be king. If he's dead, then he didn't complete Torah for kings. If he was god and didn't procreate, then he didn't fulfill Torah for kings. 3 strikes - he's out!

There are many more things in Christianity you won't understand, ressurection of course is too supernatural for you, but so is most of Christianity, we deal in the supernatural.
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
Your natural children and your natural messiah with his natural children will go where all things natural has gone before.
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

(08-28-2013, 09:59 PM)Nachshon Wrote: 3) I don't believe in a trinity/trunity/modality/separate personalities that are one. Do you?

I don't know what you mean with all those phrases, you seem to be an expert in things you don't believe in. But when I ask you about the coming of your natural messiah you fail to enlighten me.
#27
(08-29-2013, 02:01 PM)A. Bird Wrote: 1.) My dear friend, you try so hard to disprove our Lord Y'shua's messiahship that you forget that it is also written:
The LORD is King; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.,
The LORD is King, let the nations tremble; he sits ]The LORD has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over allenthroned between the cherubim, let the earth shake. and
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Or do you want to correct the psalmist also?

About the verse you mentioned:
Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
It is clear.

2.) There are many more things in Christianity you won't understand, ressurection of course is too supernatural for you, but so is most of Christianity, we deal in the supernatural.
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
Your natural children and your natural messiah with his natural children will go where all things natural has gone before.
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

3.) I don't know what you mean with all those phrases, you seem to be an expert in things you don't believe in. But when I ask you about the coming of your natural messiah you fail to enlighten me.
#1 Doesn't mention J-sus, does it?

#2 You didn't answer this.

#3 You didn't answer this. Does your idea of G-d involve more than one person, or personality, i.e., Father, Son, Holy Ghost? Is this your idea of "one"? I do try and understand false concepts and religions so that I can refute them with the truth of Torah.

Aside from Daniel 12:2,13, and Ezek 37:1-14 (which speaks of Israel returning to their land), which verses in Tanakh do you think speak about the resurrection? There doesn't seem to be a lot of detail. We do know from Deut 17:14-20 that Israel's kings are mortal, and they have children. Psalm 132:11-12 says David's children are from his loins. Acts 2:30 says J-sus is from David's loins too, interesting. Do you try to disprove the Psalmist and the NT?
#28
Nachshon Wrote:The Torah applies in the messianic kingdom. Deut 17:14-20 certainly does. You'll like Isa 53:10 also because the servant has children, whatever your understadning of the servant is.

I didn't acknowledge Yeshua's resurrection, but used his teaching as a point of contradiction. If he's resurrected, then he can't fulfill Torah in Deut 17:14-20 since he's supposed to be king. If he's dead, then he didn't complete Torah for kings. If he was god and didn't procreate, then he didn't fulfill Torah for kings. 3 strikes - he's out!

I don't believe in a trinity/trunity/modality/separate personalities that are one. Do you?

A. Bird Wrote:...you try so hard to disprove our Lord Y'shua's messiahship that you forget that it is also written:
The LORD is King; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.,
The LORD is King, let the nations tremble; he sits enthroned between the cherubim, let the earth shake. and
The LORD has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all.
...do you want to correct the psalmist...?

About the verse you mentioned:
Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
It is clear.

....more things in Christianity you won't understand, ressurection of course is too supernatural for you, but so is most of Christianity, we deal in the supernatural.
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
...your natural messiah with his natural children will go where all things natural has gone before.
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

...you seem to be an expert in things you don't believe in. But when I ask you about the coming of your natural messiah you fail to enlighten me.

Nachshon Wrote:#1 Doesn't mention J-sus, does it?

But it does disprove your point doesn't it?
Or do you still hold to your idea that God cannot be called King because he doesn't have biological children? You should stand corrected.

Nachshon Wrote:#2 You didn't answer this.

You never asked a question, you were busy playing fake cricket. Wink

Nachshon Wrote:#3 You didn't answer this. Does your idea of G-d involve more than one person, or personality, i.e., Father, Son, Holy Ghost? Is this your idea of one?

I have no idea what you are talking about, do you have me mixed up with someone else? Are you trying to finish a conversation, you've started with someone else, with me? Do you not know the scriptures or is it not enough for you?
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
#29
(08-29-2013, 06:30 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Aside from Daniel 12:2,13, and Ezek 37:1-14 (which speaks of Israel returning to their land), which verses in Tanakh do you think speak about the resurrection?

He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,

Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise.

As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.
Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God


Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and your dominion endures throughout all generations.

And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’

How great are his signs, how mighty his wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion endures from generation to generation.

Nonetheless, we don't have to bicker about this. I accept that for you there is no ressurection, that your messiah is a mere mortal, that your Moses is dead, that your Elijah is dead and that there is no ressurection in your Tanakh.

(08-29-2013, 06:30 PM)Nachshon Wrote: There doesn't seem to be a lot of detail. We do know from Deut 17:14-20 that Israel's kings are mortal, and they have children. Psalm 132:11-12 says David's children are from his loins. Acts 2:30 says J-sus is from David's loins too, interesting. Do you try to disprove the Psalmist and the NT?

I merely try to disprove you. And I think I've done it.
Y'shua is "from the loins" of David according to the flesh and according to Messianic prophecy, and Y'shua has Children also, according to the Spirit and again according to Messianic prophecy.
(I am, however, aware thereof that your religion stops with the flesh.)

Why don't you tell me about the messiah you're expecting? You're not realy expecting someone are you? You've givin up on that haven't you? Are you now your own Messiah?
#30
(08-31-2013, 03:41 AM)A. Bird Wrote: Nonetheless, we don't have to bicker about this. I accept that for you there is no ressurection, that your messiah is a mere mortal, that your Moses is dead, that your Elijah is dead and that there is no ressurection in your Tanakh.
I never said I don't believe in a resurrection. Can you supply the references to the verses above?

You haven't explained how J-sus will reign and have kids given his resurrection teaching in Matthew 22:23 vs Deut 17:14-20?

(08-31-2013, 03:41 AM)A. Bird Wrote: I merely try to disprove you. And I think I've done it.
Y'shua is "from the loins" of David according to the flesh and according to Messianic prophecy, and Y'shua has Children also, according to the Spirit and again according to Messianic prophecy.
(I am, however, aware thereof that your religion stops with the flesh.)
Sorry, but the verses in Deut 17:14-20 don't deal with spiritual children. Please tell me how J-sus will fulfill these verses in his resurrected body without marriage?

J-sus can't be from the loins of the flesh unless Joseph was his father, which means no virgin birth. What's wrong with J-sus being married and having children during his 1st coming? If G-d the Father can have a Son, why can't the Son have a Grandson, and add to the godhead so that there is a foursome? Maybe these are the 4 horsemen of the Apocolypse?

(08-31-2013, 03:41 AM)A. Bird Wrote: Why don't you tell me about the messiah you're expecting? You're not realy expecting someone are you? You've givin up on that haven't you? Are you now your own Messiah?
Wrong. I pray everyday for the coming of messiah as do all Orthodox Jews. I just don't believe messiah is G-d, nor do I believe he is immortal. Since J-sus died, that means he's not immortal either. That means you believe in a god that can die?


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