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Descendent of David
#31
(08-30-2013, 03:01 PM)A. Bird Wrote: But it does disprove your point doesn't it?
Or do you still hold to your idea that God cannot be called King because he doesn't have biological children? You should stand corrected.
Your mixing apples and oranges. Of course G-d is referred to as King throughout Tanakh. And, G-d is not being referred to in the verses in Deut 17:14-20.

(08-30-2013, 03:01 PM)A. Bird Wrote: You never asked a question, you were busy playing fake cricket. Wink
Ok, I can see where this is going. Read post #23 and please answer if you can.

(08-30-2013, 03:01 PM)A. Bird Wrote: I have no idea what you are talking about, do you have me mixed up with someone else? Are you trying to finish a conversation, you've started with someone else, with me? Do you not know the scriptures or is it not enough for you?
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Do you believe messiah is G-d? Please define what you mean by one? Most Christians believe this verse refers to a one which is a unity of three. Is this what you believe?
#32
A. Bird Wrote:Why do you write God without the "o"? If it is because of reverence, how do you justify asking such a question?

I don’t understand: if I revere G-D, I can’t ask which tribe you think He belongs in?

A. Bird Wrote:
benyosef Wrote:If the Messiah is supposed to be the literal, biological son of G-D, why does G-D tell David that all kings in Judah will come from him beginning with Solomon?

Two mistaken assumptions in this question:
1. "biological son of G-D" God is not flesh.
2. "...G-D tell David that all kings in Judah will come from him..." Go read again and quote correctly.

1. I forget that you agree G-D is not a man.
2. Here’s the NIV-UK rendition of II Samuel 7:11-16:
“The L-RD…will establish a house for you: when your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he shall be My son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men…but My love will never be taken away from him…your house and your kingdom shall endure forever before Me; your throne shall be established forever.”

Trinitarians would have us believe that this means G-D will be the literal father to one king in particular (you-know-who), yet that is not what the verse is saying at all. The verses specifically point to Solomon, who all agree was not a divine being, and we understand this to apply also to any king from Solomon on (hence, the “forever”s in the passage). In truth, all Jews are G-D’s children (Exodus 4:22, Deuteronomy 14:1), but kings will have a special connection to G-D. If you do not believe as the Trinitarians do, then we can move on.
#33
MJ Wrote:And once again, you can't answer about Passover, because the Temple was not a requirement for it. Every man is suppose to take a lamb and eat it! There is absolutely nothing to do with the Temple. That was an idea of Solomon that came much later.

And once again, you seem to not have read my answer about Pesach. Your mistake is thinking that Exodus 12 is the only source for the Laws of Pesach. It is obvious that since the first Pesach ever was in Egypt it could not have been brought in the Temple, but we have at least two other chapters which talk about Pesach and the general rules of sacrifices, and many of these laws appear in the Book in which Moshe is preparing the Nation for their entry into Israel (hence v. 8-9)! “An idea of Solomon” you say? If I had said that, you’d have a field day, possibly arguing that "Solomon doesn't mention Passover!" In fact, you were the one who said that, not I:
(08-17-2013, 07:52 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: I Kings 8:29 King Solomon asks for the house to be a house of prayer, where does Passover appear? It doesn't!

Because I’m not sure you’ve actually seen Deuteronomy 12, here are the relevant verses:
5. But you are to seek the place the L-RD your G-D will choose from among all your tribes to put His Name there for His dwelling...
6. there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices...
8. You are not to do as we do here today, everyone doing as they see fit,
9. since you have not yet reached the resting place and the inheritance the L-RD your G-D is giving you.
10. But you will cross the Jordan and settle in the land the L-RD your G-D is giving you as an inheritance...
11. Then to the place the L-RD your G-D will choose as a dwelling for His Name--there you are to bring everything I command you: your burnt offerings and sacrifices...
12. And there rejoice before the L-RD your G-D...
13. Be careful not to sacrifice your burnt offerings anywhere you please.
14. Offer them only at the place the L-RD will choose in one of your tribes, and there observe everything I command you.

It does not specifically say “Temple,” but other verses in Tanach point to the Temple as this place G-D chose for His Name (I Kings 8:19-20, II Kings 21:7, II Chronicles 7:16), and so now, in the absence of the Temple, we cannot bring sacrifices, including the Pesach.
#34
Nachshon Wrote:
A. Bird Wrote:But it does disprove your point doesn't it?
Or do you still hold to your idea that God cannot be called King because he doesn't have biological children? You should stand corrected.
Your mixing apples and oranges. Of course G-d is referred to as King throughout Tanakh. And, G-d is not being referred to in the verses in Deut 17:14-20.

And, probably, Messiah is also not reffered to there, because he is greater than Levi.
Your mistake however, is much bigger than this. It is written there:
...he must not acquire many horses...
Did king Solomon not have many horses and yet he was king?
...he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away...
Did king Sololmon not have many wives and did his heart not run after their idols, yet he was King?
...that his heart may not be lifted up above his brothers...
Also this is not foreign to Israel's earthly kings, because after all they are known to forget you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose.

Nachshon Wrote:
A. Bird Wrote:You never asked a question, you were busy playing fake cricket. Wink
Ok, I can see where this is going. Read post #23 and please answer if you can.

I'm realy sorry, I read 23 but don't have any idea what you need clarification on. Please ask your question.

Nachshon Wrote:
A. Bird Wrote:I have no idea what you are talking about, do you have me mixed up with someone else? Are you trying to finish a conversation, you've started with someone else, with me? Do you not know the scriptures or is it not enough for you?
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Do you believe messiah is G-d? Please define what you mean by one? Most Christians believe this verse refers to a one which is a unity of three. Is this what you believe?

-I believe Y'shua of Nazareth, the true and only Messiah, is the anointed Son of God. That according to His own words He and the Father are one.
Is this a hard thing for you to take? Do you not know that it is written: ...I said, You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you...

-I have heard about this idea you are talking about, I am not so sure about it, but it is okey because my heart is not lifted up; my eyes are not raised too high; I do not occupy myself with things too great and too marvelous for me. It is not mine to dissect the Allmighty.
Nonetheless, if I had a theoretical messiah like you, I could place him where I like. But I have more; a Man, even at the right hand of God.

PS. Please let us not go with "Most Christians..." you can see my name. Otherwise I might assume that you are atheist like most non-Christian Jews.
#35
benyosef Wrote:
A. Bird Wrote:Why do you write God without the "o"? If it is because of reverence, how do you justify asking such a question?
... if I revere G-D, I can’t ask which tribe you think He belongs in?

Your question was:
"If tribal affiliation follows the father, how do you know from which tribe G-D is?"
It was just amazing for me that you seem to assume or think that God can be from a tribe, it still is quite unbelievable for me because in the very next follow-up you say: "I forget that you agree G-D is not a man."
So how then could you ask such a question? It seems to want to mock God.

benyosef Wrote:
A. Bird Wrote:
benyosef Wrote:If the Messiah is supposed to be the literal, biological son of G-D, why does G-D tell David that all kings in Judah will come from him beginning with Solomon?
Two mistaken assumptions in this question:
1. "biological son of G-D" God is not flesh.
2. "...G-D tell David that all kings in Judah will come from him..." Go read again and quote correctly.
1. I forget that you agree G-D is not a man.
2. Here’s the NIV-UK rendition of II Samuel 7:11-16:
“The L-RD…will establish a house for you: when your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he shall be My son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men…but My love will never be taken away from him…your house and your kingdom shall endure forever before Me; your throne shall be established forever.”

The verses specifically point to Solomon, who all agree was not a divine being, and we understand this to apply also to any king from Solomon on (hence, the “forever”s in the passage). In truth, all Jews are G-D’s children (Exodus 4:22, Deuteronomy 14:1), but kings will have a special connection to G-D. If you do not believe as the Trinitarians do, then we can move on.

Well, Solomon did build a house for His Name, and that House is long gone. The "forever" is in connection with his throne, house and kingdom.
Is there a gap in your forever?
Who occupies his throne now? (and forever?)
I can tell you, but I think you know who.
Who dwells in his house now? (and forever?)
I can tell you, but I think you know who.
Who inherited his kingdom? (and reigns forever?)
I can tell you, but I think you know who.

With regards to the children of God consider carefully.
Have I ever quoted Bob Dylan for you? Smile

You think that when you rest at last you’ll go back from where you came, But you’ve picked up quite a story and you’ve changed since the womb, What happened to the real you, you’ve been captured but by whom?
#36
(09-04-2013, 11:14 AM)benyosef Wrote:
MJ Wrote:And once again, you can't answer about Passover, because the Temple was not a requirement for it. Every man is suppose to take a lamb and eat it! There is absolutely nothing to do with the Temple. That was an idea of Solomon that came much later.

And once again, you seem to not have read my answer about Pesach. Your mistake is thinking that Exodus 12 is the only source for the Laws of Pesach. It is obvious that since the first Pesach ever was in Egypt it could not have been brought in the Temple, but we have at least two other chapters which talk about Pesach and the general rules of sacrifices, and many of these laws appear in the Book in which Moshe is preparing the Nation for their entry into Israel (hence v. 8-9)! “An idea of Solomon” you say? If I had said that, you’d have a field day, possibly arguing that "Solomon doesn't mention Passover!" In fact, you were the one who said that, not I:
(08-17-2013, 07:52 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: I Kings 8:29 King Solomon asks for the house to be a house of prayer, where does Passover appear? It doesn't!

Because I’m not sure you’ve actually seen Deuteronomy 12, here are the relevant verses:
5. But you are to seek the place the L-RD your G-D will choose from among all your tribes to put His Name there for His dwelling...
6. there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices...
8. You are not to do as we do here today, everyone doing as they see fit,
9. since you have not yet reached the resting place and the inheritance the L-RD your G-D is giving you.
10. But you will cross the Jordan and settle in the land the L-RD your G-D is giving you as an inheritance...
11. Then to the place the L-RD your G-D will choose as a dwelling for His Name--there you are to bring everything I command you: your burnt offerings and sacrifices...
12. And there rejoice before the L-RD your G-D...
13. Be careful not to sacrifice your burnt offerings anywhere you please.
14. Offer them only at the place the L-RD will choose in one of your tribes, and there observe everything I command you.

It does not specifically say “Temple,” but other verses in Tanach point to the Temple as this place G-D chose for His Name (I Kings 8:19-20, II Kings 21:7, II Chronicles 7:16), and so now, in the absence of the Temple, we cannot bring sacrifices, including the Pesach.

Joshua 5:10
And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.
#37
(09-05-2013, 07:19 PM)A. Bird Wrote: And, probably, Messiah is also not reffered to there, because he is greater than Levi.
Is messiah a descendant of David, and king of Israel?

(09-05-2013, 07:19 PM)A. Bird Wrote: Your mistake however, is much bigger than this. It is written there:
...he must not acquire many horses...
Did king Solomon not have many horses and yet he was king?
whom the Lord your God will choose.[/color]
I think we went over this. Yes, Solomon sinned. But, Hashem did choose David and his descendants.

(09-05-2013, 07:19 PM)A. Bird Wrote: I'm realy sorry, I read 23 but don't have any idea what you need clarification on. Please ask your question.
That's fine. I don't think you answered any of the questions.

(09-05-2013, 07:19 PM)A. Bird Wrote:
Nachshon Wrote:Do you believe messiah is G-d? Please define what you mean by one? Most Christians believe this verse refers to a one which is a unity of three. Is this what you believe?
-I believe Y'shua of Nazareth, the true and only Messiah, is the anointed Son of God. That according to His own words He and the Father are one.
Is this a hard thing for you to take? Do you not know that it is written: ...I said, You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you...
What does son of G-d mean to you, divine? Psalm 82:6 does say what you quoted, but Psalm 82:7 says these gods die like mortals. Can you answer what the word "one" means to you?

(09-05-2013, 07:19 PM)A. Bird Wrote: -I have heard about this idea you are talking about, I am not so sure about it, but it is okey because my heart is not lifted up; my eyes are not raised too high; I do not occupy myself with things too great and too marvelous for me. It is not mine to dissect the Allmighty.
Nonetheless, if I had a theoretical messiah like you, I could place him where I like. But I have more; a Man, even at the right hand of God.
Interesting. You don't even know what my beliefs are, but I've been trying to ask you questions to understand your point of view.

(09-05-2013, 07:19 PM)A. Bird Wrote: PS. Please let us not go with "Most Christians..." you can see my name. Otherwise I might assume that you are atheist like most non-Christian Jews.
I did not include you in that category as you can tell by the way I worded my response, but rather stated what the general Christian belief was. You can call me what you like. I know what I am.
#38
(09-07-2013, 09:31 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Is messiah a descendant of David, and king of Israel?
Affirmative! And More.

(09-07-2013, 09:31 PM)Nachshon Wrote: What does son of G-d mean to you, divine? Psalm 82:6 does say what you quoted, but Psalm 82:7 says these gods die like mortals. Can you answer what the word "one" means to you?
Son of God means Y'shua of Nazareth.
One means the LORD our God the LORD.

(09-07-2013, 09:31 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Interesting. You don't even know what my beliefs are, but I've been trying to ask you questions to understand your point of view.
I've asked you many times, you've never answered me really, merely spoke about a man who will get very old and die, is that all of it? But please enlighten the reader.
Once more: Please tell us about your messiah. What are your beliefs other than a reaction on mine?
My point of view is this: Y'shua of Nazarethe is Messiah.
#39
(09-06-2013, 12:39 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: Joshua 5:10
And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.

Right: we both agree offerings were brought prior to the Temple being built, since G-D had not yet placed His Name anywhere. Thus, they could keep Pesach in Gilgal and bring offerings in Nov, Shilo, and Giveon (thanks to the presence of the Tabernacle). Once the Temple was built, however, sacrifices and offerings were limited exclusively to the Temple grounds, because that is where G-D placed His Name.
#40
(09-08-2013, 02:15 PM)A. Bird Wrote:
(09-07-2013, 09:31 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Is messiah a descendant of David, and king of Israel?
Affirmative! And More.
Okay. Then explain how J-sus will fulfill Deut 17:14-20 as a king of Israel?

(09-08-2013, 02:15 PM)A. Bird Wrote:
(09-07-2013, 09:31 PM)Nachshon Wrote: What does son of G-d mean to you, divine? Psalm 82:6 does say what you quoted, but Psalm 82:7 says these gods die like mortals. Can you answer what the word "one" means to you?
Son of God means Y'shua of Nazareth.
One means the LORD our God the LORD.
You didn't answer the question. Does son of G-d = G-d? Is the son of G-d divine and doesn't die? What does one mean to you - absolute/singular one, unity of one, relative one, plural one?

(09-08-2013, 02:15 PM)A. Bird Wrote:
(09-07-2013, 09:31 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Interesting. You don't even know what my beliefs are, but I've been trying to ask you questions to understand your point of view.
I've asked you many times, you've never answered me really, merely spoke about a man who will get very old and die, is that all of it? But please enlighten the reader.

Once more: Please tell us about your messiah. What are your beliefs other than a reaction on mine?
My point of view is this: Y'shua of Nazarethe is Messiah.
My point of view is that Yeshua is not the messiah, and not G-d.

I tried to make you understand that the Tanakh is silent/reserved on what the resurrection consists of: what happens to people who are alive?, do people eat?, what is the difference between a resurrected person and a person who is alive during the resurrection, etc.

The NT makes some statements about the resurrection, and people changing in the twinkling of an eye, etc., but I find no support for all of these notions in Tanakh.

What I do know is that the 3rd temple described in Ezekial, specifically in Ezek 45, states that the prince will bring sin sacrifices for Israel and himself. To me this hints of regular humans living and dieing, and the prince dieing as well and his sons reinginig after him like Deut 17:14-20 says.

Other passages in Tanakh indicate that those who have died will be resurrected, so it appears two groups of people live on in the messianic age - the regular living and resurrected.

Since the Tanakh is silent on many details, I rather not speculate. Does this sound fair?


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