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"If I had faked the Resurrection..."
#51
Other ancient sources include Cornelius Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Lucian of Samosata, and the Babylonian Talmud.

Related articles include http://www.carm.org/non-biblical-account...dor-people

http://www.gotquestions.org/why-believe-resurrection

The people whom I believe are the ones who had the most to lose -- their lives -- for proclaiming the Risen Messiah they had known, and they include almost all of the earliest disciples.

I also believe more recent Jews who have experienced His love and forgiveness, and they include Victorian statesman Benjamin Disraeli, actor David Suchet ("Poirot"), composer Felix Mendelssohn, and death camp survivor Vera Schlamm.

No sources will ever convince anyone who has chosen to reject Jesus.
#52
MAlan Wrote:Other ancient sources include Cornelius Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Lucian of Samosata, and the Babylonian Talmud.

Maybe I'm missing it, but none of the sources you gave actually speak of the Christian Jesus. They speak of Christians, of historical people found in other writings (Herod is kind of hard to miss), and of someone named "Yeshu," but no Christian Jesus.

Incidentally, the Talmud records about a dozen "Yeshus" who all have lives and stories completely different as told from the gospel accounts. It does not appear that your Jesus is any of them.

MAlan Wrote:No sources will ever convince anyone who has chosen to reject Jesus.

I think legit sources will help convince people. Offering weak sources and manipulating texts will not convince those who know the texts to see things your way. Perhaps if there were clear, maybe even unbiased sources which confirmed who you say Jesus was, then we'd have something to talk about. Since historians who lived when Jesus allegedly did said nothing about him, all we have is the Christian religious texts; since the picture they paint differs from what the Jewish prophets clearly and openly say about the Messiah, he, just like any other messianic candidate until now, is not qualified.
#53
(12-29-2013, 08:46 AM)MAlan Wrote: Other ancient sources include Cornelius Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Lucian of Samosata, and the Babylonian Talmud.

Related articles include http://www.carm.org/non-biblical-account...dor-people
The Talmud reference is interesting because hanging is different than crucifixion. J-sus wasn't hanged nor executed by Jewish law, but by Roman law. So, no prophecies were fulfilled here. Not that any were implied to begin with.

So, the reference I believe is to someone else since Yehoshua was a common name, and the Talmud in 43a says he had five disciples: Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni, and Todah, who were all executed as well.

http://halakhah.com/, Seder Nezekin, sanhedrin.df.
#54
(12-30-2013, 08:51 AM)Nachshon Wrote: The Talmud reference is interesting because hanging is different than crucifixion. J-sus wasn't hanged nor executed by Jewish law, but by Roman law. So, no prophecies were fulfilled here. Not that any were implied to begin with.

So, the reference I believe is to someone else since Yehoshua was a common name, and the Talmud in 43a says he had five disciples: Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni, and Todah, who were all executed as well.

http://halakhah.com/, Seder Nezekin, sanhedrin.df.

Thanks, Nachshon. I forgot where the five-disciple-Yeshu was.


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