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Yeshua and the Red Heifer
#11
"Yeshua was in contact with Lazarus’s sisters during the seven days after his death"

This is baseless speculation. The text says that Jesus talked with them. It no where says that Jesus touched them. It no where says that Jesus touched Lazarus or any part of the burial place. In fact, it specifically records Jesus commanding others to roll the stone, to unloose Lazarus. it specifically says that Jesus did not enter into the town, much less entered into the house of Lazarus and his sisters.

I am very disappointed in the believers in Jesus that kept this thread going and did not even notice something this basic.

Hey, Nachshon, why don't you try another thread in which you assume that Jesus coveted his neighbor's house and then you can have a long discussion about how Jesus could be forgiven. Just pick your imaginary topic and the controversy will provide endless diversion.
#12
(07-19-2013, 10:09 AM)ThomasDGW Wrote: "Yeshua was in contact with Lazarus’s sisters during the seven days after his death"

This is baseless speculation. The text says that Jesus talked with them. It no where says that Jesus touched them. It no where says that Jesus touched Lazarus or any part of the burial place.
...
I am very disappointed in the believers in Jesus that kept this thread going and did not even notice something this basic.

Hey, Nachshon, why don't you try another thread in which you assume that Jesus coveted his neighbor's house and then you can have a long discussion about how Jesus could be forgiven. Just pick your imaginary topic and the controversy will provide endless diversion.
ThomasDGW:

You bring up a good point. The story with Lazarus, though no specific touching is mentioned, it is highly improbable that no one that entered the household of Lazarus, or the crowds at the funeral, did not come in contact in some way with the dead, and then touch Yeshua at some point.

That being the case, that's why I supplied at least two additional cases where Yeshua is known to have touched the dead, or touched the coffin of the dead: Matthew 9:18,23;25; Luke 7:11-14. We can speculate, also with good reason, that his sending messages to John the Baptist concerning reviving the dead and healing the blind means more cases of touching the dead. This would make Yeshua impure and requires purification for sin by the waters as described in Numbers 19.

Matt 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
Matt 9:23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,
Matt 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Matt 9:25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.

Luke 7:12 Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her.
Luke 7:14 he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.

By the way, the fact the Yeshua came in contact with the dead probably provides a background as to why he was being baptised by John. Baptism/immersion/mikveh is only required for someone that has sexual relations, comes in contact with a leper, comes in contact with the dead, and a few other cases.

My data and background provided from the Torah in Numbers 19 and in the NT is not baseless speculation.

Thank you for your encouragement to create other threads for discussion. I hope you will join them.
#13
"... it is highly improbable...We can speculate, ..."

No, Nachshon, I am trying to get it across that you have no right to speculate and use that speculation to cast doubt on a doctrine. Stick with what the text says.

"Matt 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Matt 9:25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose."

Jesus said that she was not dead, so you can lay this one aside in your relentless search for getting Jesus purified.

"Luke 7:12 Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her.
Luke 7:14 he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise."

Here you have a case where Jesus did touch the coffin of a man who had been dead. If you had just mentioned this passage, then I would give you credit for being sincere. But here also you are missing something. Right after this, the man who WAS dead sat up. What makes you think that the man was dead when Jesus touched the coffin? The act of raising the man from the dead, as in the case of Lazarus, necessarily involved reversing the putrefaction. The instructions in Numbers were for a man who was dead, not a man who was raised from the dead.

And you may also cease to speculate about the baptism of John. It was not a normal mikveh. Instead, why don't you start to follow the example of the Israelites in Luke 7:16?
#14
(07-17-2013, 11:06 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Yeshua came in contact with the dead at least once (Lazarus, his house, his relatives, his belongings, unclean for seven days) which would require a cleansing ritual with ashes from the red cow, which is a water purification right for sin (Numbers 19:9,11,13-22).

When did he do fulfill this commandment?
God is pure He does not have to be purified , And Lazerus was alive when Yeshua touched Him....
#15
Nachshon Wrote:By the way, the fact the Yeshua came in contact with the dead probably provides a background as to why he was being baptised by John.

Jesus's baptism preceded His raising Lazarus, being at the very beginning of His ministry (Matt. 3:13-17). But more importantly Jesus wanted to be baptized for another reason having to do with being a man who denied Himself no matter how good He was, in order to live by the Father, which is what the Son of Man did.

"I can do nothing from Myself; as I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will but the will of Him who sent Me." (John 5:30)

"He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of Him who sent Him, this One is true and unrighteousness is not in Him." (John 7:18)

Jesus denied Himself (burial) and lived by the life of the Father (resurrection). Though He could be a good man even as Adam was good before he sinned, Jesus did not live by that natural goodness. He terminated that in denying Himself (even the good self) and lived by the Father.

In the night of His arrest He prayed - Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet, not My will, but Yours be done." (Luke 22:42)

Some readers may think this only means Jesus was willing to die if it was the Father's will. Actually it means that He was willing to do the Father's will whatever that will was. In other words if it was the Father's will for Him NOT to be crucified, Jesus would not go against the Father's will to BE crucified. - " ... not My will, but Yours be done."

Throughout His entire incarnation as a man Jesus denied Himself even as a good man in order to live the Father. In being baptized He demonstrated this. It is not because He felt the need for cleansing from any sins. It was because He was a man absolute for the will of the Father.

Cont.

Jesus insisted that the reluctant John the Baptist baptize the Son of God as well ? Jesus instruct John that this should be done to fulfill all righteousness (Matt. 3:13-17)

" ... John tried to prevent Him, saying, It [is] I [who] have need of being baptized by You, and You come to me ? But Jesus answered and said to him, Permit it for now, for it is fitting for us in this way to fulfill all righteousness. Then he permitted Him." (vs.14,15)

The Lord Jesus denied Himself to live by the Father. Even as a perfect man He did not live by His natural perfection but denied Himself in that too in order to live by the Father.

As a man Jesus came to be baptized according to God's New Testament way. Of the four gospels only John's does not give a record of the Lord Jesus being baptized because John so intended to mostly testify that the Lord Jesus is God.

Righteousness is to be right by living, walking, and doing things in the way God has ordained. In the Old Testament, to be righteous was to keep the law that God had given. Now God sent John the Baptist to institute baptism. To be baptized also is to fulfill righteousness before God, that is, to fulfill the requirement of God.

The Lord Jesus came to John not as God but as a typical man, a real Israelite. He had to be baptized in order to keep the dispensational practice of God; otherwise He would not have been right with God.

Christ's being baptized according to God's ordination and to allow Himself to be put into death and resurrected that He might minister not in a natural way but in the way of resurrection - thoroughly of the Father's divine life and not as a good natural man.

He bore the cross of denying Himself before He was crucified. And before He was raised He already said that He was the resurrection and the life (John 11:25) Jesus could have lived as a perfect natural man. He did not. He denied even His natural perfection to live the Father -

Here again we see Jesus denying the goodness that could come from Him naturally in order to live out the Father -

"I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true, and what I have heard from Him, these things I speak to the world.

They did not understand that He was speaking to them of the Father." (John 8:26,27)


Nachshon Wrote:Isaiah 53 mentions nothing about atonement/kippur.

Isaiah 53 says " By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servant, will make the many righteous." (v.11)

And it also says " ... He makes Himself an offering for sin ..." (v.10) and again "He alone vore the sin of many and interceded for the transfressors." (v.12)

For example He interceded for the world's transgressors here: Luke 23:34 -"And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

And we are so glad that He did intercede for us.

.
#16
Concerning Isaiah 45:11 here are a number of English translations. By far not all have verse 11 in the form of a QUESTION though some do. Others have it as a request for men to charge or command God concerning His own will:

Quote: New International Version (©2011)
"This is what the LORD says-- the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?
New Living Translation (©2007)
This is what the LORD says--the Holy One of Israel and your Creator: "Do you question what I do for my children? Do you give me orders about the work of my hands?

English Standard Version (©2001)
Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and the one who formed him: “Ask me of things to come; will you command me concerning my children and the work of my hands?

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: "Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons, And you shall commit to Me the work of My hands.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
This is what the LORD, the Holy One of Israel and its Maker, says:" Ask Me what is to happen to My sons, and instruct Me about the work of My hands.

International Standard Version (©2012)
This is what the Lord says, the Creator of the signs: "Question me about my children? Or give me orders about the work of my hands?

NET Bible (©2006)
This is what the LORD says, the Holy One of Israel, the one who formed him, concerning things to come: "How dare you question me about my children! How dare you tell me what to do with the work of my own hands!

Cont. below

Quote:
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The LORD is the Holy One and the maker of Israel. This is what the LORD says: Ask me about what is going to happen to my children! Are you going to give me orders concerning my handiwork?

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands, you command me.

American King James Version
Thus said the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command you me.

American Standard Version
Thus saith Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: Ask me of the things that are to come; concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands, command ye me.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Thus saith the Lord the Holy One of Israel, his maker: Ask me of things to come, concerning my children, and concerning the work of my hands give ye charge to me.

Darby Bible Translation
Thus saith Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: Ask me of the things to come; concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands, command ye me.

English Revised Version
Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: Ask me of the things that are to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands, command ye me.
#17
(07-19-2013, 06:48 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: No, Nachshon, I am trying to get it across that you have no right to speculate and use that speculation to cast doubt on a doctrine. Stick with what the text says.
...
If I follow your reasoning, then none of these people were dead. Then, no miracle occurred. Follow the thinking through.

It is also unreasonable to think that Yeshua never attended any other funerals prior to the start of his ministry, as is the custom and practice of religious Jews. Wouldn't he have haved attended the funeral for his step-father Joseph, or any other family member, even if they were not resurrected?

Even if someone was resurrected from the dead, the point is they were dead othewise a resurrection would be unneccesary. The laws in Numbers 19 still apply to those who touched the dead, came in contact with his household or belongings.

When a religious doctrine contradicts Torah, that's a problem, regardless of who teaches it. I'm sorry that you can't see this. I have every right to point out something I feel is false, just like you pointed out your belief in the finality of Israel as a nation and people.

If you follow through that Yeshua is just a man and would have to abide by all of Torah, even Numbers 19, then there are no issues. If you are like many Christians who believe Yeshua is a god, then you have major theological implications here - he can't be a god, godman, or have G-d in him at the moment of contact with the dead. This is why Yeshua cries out to the Father because the Father is not in him. Yeshua is not G-d or perfect.

Contact with impurity, cannot be brushed off. That's like saying I can eat a pork sandwich, and then eat a "kosher" sandwich, and make the pork go away.

So, the issue still remains. Hashem does not stand by next to sin, uncleaniness and unholiness, regardless of the person. We see this throughout Tanakh with Moses, prophets, kings, everyone.

(07-20-2013, 06:59 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Jesus's baptism preceded His raising Lazarus, being at the very beginning of His ministry (Matt. 3:13-17).
What happened before the start of his ministry? Do you think he never encountered death before?

(07-20-2013, 06:59 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Isaiah 53 says " By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servant, will make the many righteous." (v.11)
...
It is very common when a person dies, that people reflect on the deceased's life, and how it impacts them, and their own mortality. This doesn't mean that the person has provided atonement, but that the death was an impetus for the living to seek repentance and G-d.

If you read Isa 53 and compare to Psalm 89:32, Isa 10:20, Isa 27:7,9, Isa 5:25, you'll see the comparisons with Israel. But, I don't want to veer off the subject of the thread. Please respond to the thread discussion, thanks.
#18
Nachshon Wrote:What happened before the start of his ministry? Do you think he never encountered death before?

We should understand that when Jesus began His ministry at the age of about 30 what He spoke was what He had lived. He taught out from what He had been living on the earth for thirty years.

He denied Himself and lived by the Father. This was a cross before bearing the cross. This as a saying no to the self and obeying the Father.

The crown of thorns which He wore at the physical cross we might think of as the crowning result of His whole life. The joy of living by the Father was with Him. But the bitter opposition of living thus in a sin cursed world was a suffering.

You ask if He died before crucifixion. No. From eternity He lived. From birth as the Son of Man He lived a life of "bearing the cross" of self denial.

Then accomplishing redemption for the rest of us who only care for ourselves and not the will of God, He said "It is finished" as His blood poured out for the eternal redemption of the forgiven sinner.

No, He had no experience of physical death before Calvary. But the denial of self, the denial of the soul is what He lived throughout His whole life.

This was and still is God mingled with man. See the meal offering of Leviticus chapter 2. The typology of fine flour mingled with oil depicts the pristine human nature mingled with the eternal Spirit.

Franz Delitzsch in his Old Testament commentary spoke of the word "mingle"

Quote: As the latter were to be smeared with oil, we cannot understand bahlul [Heb. "mingled"] as signifying merely the pouring of oil upon the baked cakes, but musttake it in the sense of mingled, mixed, i.e. kneaded with oil.

J.N. Darby has a similar note in his New Translation of the Bible. (Darby translated the whole Bible both from Hebrew and Greek). He enlarges on the concept given by Franz Delitzsch.

Darby's style of writing sometimes makes me have to go over it twice.

Quote: Bahlal. It cannot, I think, be doubted that this is more than, and intended to be more than mahshagh "anointed," "Mixed," "mingled," is the sense of the word. In Psalm 92:10 it is not merely "anointed" as consecration, but his whole system is invigorated and strengthened by it; it formed his strength; hence it is "fresh oil" there.

Incarnation brought in the mingling of humanity and divinity in Messiah. The typology of the meal offering in Leviticus portrays this intention of God in preparation of the Ultimate Offering which would be the Son of God.

Nachshon Wrote:If you read Isa 53 and compare to Psalm 89:32, Isa 10:20, Isa 27:7,9, Isa 5:25, you'll see the comparisons with Israel. But, I don't want to veer off the subject of the thread. Please respond to the thread discussion, thanks.

Okay, ignoring your points until anther time.

The writers of the Gospels did not give any details about whatever ceremonial observance accompanied the raising of Lazarus. So strictly speaking we don't know because we are not told.

There are other instances the Gospel writers relayed about criticisms leveled at Jesus about ceremonial matters. Sometimes He pointed to the Old Testament to show them a similar thing occurred with David as what they criticized in Him. In a change of dispensation from the priests to the kings God made some allowances for the king to eat of the sacred bread which was unlawful for anyone to eat.

I think the change in deputy authority over His people had something to do with the exceptions we see in David's acts which seemed contrary to some ceremonial practice.

That is all I will write on this now.
#19
(07-21-2013, 02:08 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote:
Nachshon Wrote:What happened before the start of his ministry? Do you think he never encountered death before?
We should understand that when Jesus began His ministry at the age of about 30 what He spoke was what He had lived. He taught out from what He had been living on the earth for thirty years.
...
You ask if He died before crucifixion. No. From eternity He lived. From birth as the Son of Man He lived a life of "bearing the cross" of self denial.
I meant Yeshua encountered other people's death before the start of his ministry. More uncleaniness. More purification needed.

(07-21-2013, 02:08 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: This was and still is God mingled with man. See the meal offering of Leviticus chapter 2. The typology of fine flour mingled with oil depicts the pristine human nature mingled with the eternal Spirit.
You're reading into this what you want to see.

(07-21-2013, 02:08 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: The writers of the Gospels did not give any details about whatever ceremonial observance accompanied the raising of Lazarus. So strictly speaking we don't know because we are not told.
And that's why you must understand Jewish customs and laws because then these things would be obvious.

Again I ask, please stick to the point of discussion about Numbers 19 and Yeshua and its implications. Thanks.
#20
(07-20-2013, 06:26 AM)IamBenny Wrote:
(07-17-2013, 11:06 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Yeshua came in contact with the dead at least once (Lazarus, his house, his relatives, his belongings, unclean for seven days) which would require a cleansing ritual with ashes from the red cow, which is a water purification right for sin (Numbers 19:9,11,13-22).

When did he do fulfill this commandment?
God is pure He does not have to be purified , And Lazerus was alive when Yeshua touched Him....
Good point, Benny. G-d is pure and cannot be in contact with impurity, unholiness, and sin. So then, Yeshua is not G-d because he had to be purified according to Numbers 19 for his contact with the dead, and made pure.

If he did not do this, he did not fulfill the entire Torah/law. If he did, it shows he is not G-d. Definitely he cannot be a godman because he would not be able to be a god at the moment of contact with death, or with impurity. The fact that gospel accounts show the spirit of G-d departs/is outside from Yeshua shows conclusively he is not G-d (before his baptism, before his death, as examples).


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