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Yeshua and the Red Heifer
#21
(07-21-2013, 07:25 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(07-21-2013, 02:08 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote:
Nachshon Wrote:What happened before the start of his ministry? Do you think he never encountered death before?
We should understand that when Jesus began His ministry at the age of about 30 what He spoke was what He had lived. He taught out from what He had been living on the earth for thirty years.
...
You ask if He died before crucifixion. No. From eternity He lived. From birth as the Son of Man He lived a life of "bearing the cross" of self denial.
I meant Yeshua encountered other people's death before the start of his ministry. More uncleaniness. More purification needed.

(07-21-2013, 02:08 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: This was and still is God mingled with man. See the meal offering of Leviticus chapter 2. The typology of fine flour mingled with oil depicts the pristine human nature mingled with the eternal Spirit.
You're reading into this what you want to see.

(07-21-2013, 02:08 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: The writers of the Gospels did not give any details about whatever ceremonial observance accompanied the raising of Lazarus. So strictly speaking we don't know because we are not told.
And that's why you must understand Jewish customs and laws because then these things would be obvious.

Again I ask, please stick to the point of discussion about Numbers 19 and Yeshua and its implications. Thanks.

So basically you are saying that in raising Lazarus from the dead as described in John 11, Jesus totally is disqualified to be a righteous man before God.

Did you read the story of Elisha the prophet stretching himself upon the dead body of a boy and bringing him back to life ? This is in Second Kings 3:28-37 .

Notice - "And when Elisha went into the house, there was the dead boy, laid out on his bed. And he went in and shut the door behind the two of them, and he prayed to Jehovah.

Then he got up and lay on the child, and he put his mouth on his mouth and his eyes on his eyes and his palms on his palms; and he stretched himself over him, and the flesh of the child became warm ...etc. "
(vs.32-34)

Do you condemn Elisha the prophet there too because nothing at all is mentioned about the regulation of Numbers 19 ?
#22
(07-22-2013, 09:01 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: So basically you are saying that in raising Lazarus from the dead as described in John 11, Jesus totally is disqualified to be a righteous man before God.

Did you read the story of Elisha the prophet stretching himself upon the dead body of a boy and bringing him back to life ? This is in Second Kings 3:28-37 .

Notice - "And when Elisha went into the house, there was the dead boy, laid out on his bed. And he went in and shut the door behind the two of them, and he prayed to Jehovah.

Then he got up and lay on the child, and he put his mouth on his mouth and his eyes on his eyes and his palms on his palms; and he stretched himself over him, and the flesh of the child became warm ...etc. "
(vs.32-34)

Do you condemn Elisha the prophet there too because nothing at all is mentioned about the regulation of Numbers 19 ?
You're missing my point. Of course I would assume that Yeshua fulfilled the laws of Numbers 19 (if he wanted to be perfect in the law), and so did Elisha, because they would have to comply with the Torah.

That being the case, since G-d does not have a need for perfection, purification, cannot become unclean or unholy, cannot sin, then Yeshua is not G-d or perfect. It's straight forward.

The issue is not just with Lazarus, but any other case of death that Yeshua encountered. Do you understand?
#23
Nachshon Wrote:You're missing my point. Of course I would assume that Yeshua fulfilled the laws of Numbers 19 (if he wanted to be perfect in the law), and so did Elisha, because they would have to comply with the Torah.

That being the case, since G-d does not have a need for perfection, purification, cannot become unclean or unholy, cannot sin, then Yeshua is not G-d or perfect. It's straight forward.

The issue is not just with Lazarus, but any other case of death that Yeshua encountered. Do you understand?

I think I understand you but you err. And this is where error is frequently repeated by those who do not understand the incarnation.

By saying Jesus is God we are not saying Jesus is NOT a man. As a man He was capable of falling prey to the temptation to sin and sinning. He did not.

"God has not need to be purified" you say. So, it follows (you reason) that Jesus could not be God. But "the Word became flesh" means that He had two natures - God and man. And as a man He could have sinned. He did not.

There was no ground in Him as a man in which Satan could get the advantage to cause Him to sin. He said that Satan had nothing in Him -

John 14:30 " ... for the ruler of the world is coming, and in Me he has nothing; But this is so that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father commanded Me, so I do."

Of His own volition He kept OUT of His being any ground ceded up to the Devil. You and I have much ground upon which Satan can cause us to sin. As a man Satan gained no ground in His being.

It is too bad that you shot your heart when the New Testament is quoted. But any way He became a man like us and OVERCAME for us -

"These things I have spoken to you that in Me you mah have peace. In the world you have affliction, but take courage; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33)

So by saying that Messiah is God or the Son of God we do not mean the He is not a man. He is a man who never sinned - the reality of the lamb without blemish as an offering for sins.
#24
(07-22-2013, 08:55 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: So by saying that Messiah is God or the Son of God we do not mean the He is not a man. He is a man who never sinned - the reality of the lamb without blemish as an offering for sins.
Go back and read Numbers 19. You're skirting the issues.
#25
(07-22-2013, 09:03 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(07-22-2013, 08:55 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: So by saying that Messiah is God or the Son of God we do not mean the He is not a man. He is a man who never sinned - the reality of the lamb without blemish as an offering for sins.
Go back and read Numbers 19. You're skirting the issues.

I don't think I am skirting the issue.

In both the case of Elisha and Jesus no specific mention is made of ceremonial washings afterwards. Saying they took place is 100% speculation. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't.

The priorities of what the Holy Spirit wants the reader to be impressed with certainly lie elsewhere in both cases.

I think you thought you have a slam dunk to show the incarnation could not be. And your argument is not skirted as far as I can tell. It simply is not valid.

But if you want to spell out specifically what is being "skirted", go ahead.
#26
(07-22-2013, 09:11 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote:
(07-22-2013, 09:03 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(07-22-2013, 08:55 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: So by saying that Messiah is God or the Son of God we do not mean the He is not a man. He is a man who never sinned - the reality of the lamb without blemish as an offering for sins.
Go back and read Numbers 19. You're skirting the issues.

I don't think I am skirting the issue.

In both the case of Elisha and Jesus no specific mention is made of ceremonial washings afterwards. Saying they took place is 100% speculation. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't.

The priorities of what the Holy Spirit wants the reader to be impressed with certainly lie elsewhere in both cases.

I think you thought you have a slam dunk to show the incarnation could not be. And your argument is not skirted as far as I can tell. It simply is not valid.

But if you want to spell out specifically what is being "skirted", go ahead.
If Torah calls out observance to the commandments, then that's what has to be done. To assume that a prophet from Tanach or the messiah will not fulfill Torah purposely is pretty silly.

So, you avoided my previous questions. Explain how G-d can be with a willful sinner, an unclean person, an unholy person? If Yeshua is a godman, you have a contradiction because you have him becoming unclean/unholy, unpure, coming in contact with the dead.

If Numbers 19:9 says, "And a man that is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and lay them up without the camp in a clean place, and it shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for a water of separation: it is a purification for sin. The cleansing waters are needed to become pure again. Yeshua was contaminated by contact with the dead. Do you believe G-d came in contact with this too and needed purification? How can you be a godman when you have G-d/Spirit leaving you before death, before start of ministry, etc.?
#27
Nachshon Wrote:If Torah calls out observance to the commandments, then that's what has to be done. To assume that a prophet from Tanach or the messiah will not fulfill Torah purposely is pretty silly.

Silly? Here is a man of God who is so in tune with the Almighty that He can speak and bring someone back from the DEAD ! And you are hung up on whether He afterwards partook of the ceremonial washing to be "purified".

What is silly is consider you standing there witnessing the miracle only to be watching closely whether Jesus had the water of Numbers 19 available to cleanse Himself.

Let's consider not just what you say. Let's consider what some of the Torah experts

Nicodemus was a rabbi and ruler among the Jews. He came by night to Jesus and said this:

" ... Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher, for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." (John 3:2)

They were not clear that He was the Son of God yet. But many of these Torah experts could not deny that God as with Jesus.

One man angered the Pharisees by reminding them that God must be listening to a righteous man if that man can do such things as Jesus was doing. The man born blind whose eyes Jesus opened said this:

"Why here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes! we know that God does not hear sinners, but if anyone is God-fearng and does His will, He hears him. Since time began it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of one born blind. If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.

They answered and said to him, You were wholly born in sins, and you are teaching us? And they cast him out." (John 9:30-34)


Even this commoner knew that such a miracle as opening the eyes of one blind from birth had to be someone morally pure enough to allow God to respond to His desires for the man's healing.

A good portion of the Torah experts shared Nicodemus's thought, even if reluctantly, that Jesus was a teacher "sent from God". That He was some kind of holy man from God doing things that they could not was apparent.

Have you considered how "pure" this man's heart had to before His Father to cure a man born blind and speak and cause a man four days dead, to come out of the tomb ?

Nachshon Wrote:So, you avoided my previous questions.

First of all let me tell you what kind of Christian apologist I am. I do not mind telling someone that a question is too hard for me to answer. If you ask something of me that is too difficult from me to figure out, I will tell you. I have no problem with that. These are matters of faith.

Nachshon Wrote:Explain how G-d can be with a willful sinner, an unclean person, an unholy person? If Yeshua is a godman, you have a contradiction because you have him becoming unclean/unholy, unpure, coming in contact with the dead.

The Son of God was a willful obedient person even unto death, and that the death of a cross.

The consensus of many of the experts was that God was listening to Jesus. Otherwise He could not do the things He was doing. Some of them hated that and were jealous. Or they were mad for some other religious reason. But they realized that He was so close to God that He could raise the dead.

The hard core opposers sought not only to put Jesus to death but put Lazarus BACK to death as well.

"Then a great crowd of the Jews found out that He was there, and they came, not because of Jesus only, but that they might also see Lazarus, whom He had raised from the dead.

And the chief priests took counsel to kill Lazarus also, Because on account of him many of the Jews went away and believed into Jesus." (John 12:9-11)


Who were more the sinful ones? Was it Jesus who raised Lazarus and maybe did not afterwards wash in Numbers 19 water? Or was the greater guilt with those who knowing of the divine miracle sought to kill not only Jesus but the evidence of His power to raise the dead ?

When Jesus raised Lazarus did you read what He said in His prayer ? ?

"Then they took the stone away. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I knew that You ALWAYS hear Me; but because of the crowd standing around, I said it, that they may believe that You sent Me." (11:41,42)

He must have been pure enough in heart, in intention, in motive, in inclination, in every possible inward way, that the Father immediately heard all that He requested. He is greater than Elisha the prophet. Compare the two raisings.

His audience with God testified of His purity. Meanwhile those who sought the meticulous obedience to ritualistic washings were plotting to murder both Him and Lazarus, the proof of Christ's oneness with God.

Nachshon Wrote:If Numbers 19:9 ... The cleansing waters are needed to become pure again. Yeshua was contaminated by contact with the dead. Do you believe G-d came in contact with this too and needed purification? How can you be a godman when you have G-d/Spirit leaving you before death, before start of ministry, etc.?

Okay, The Spirit that left Christ as He was forsaken by the Father on the cross, was the Spirit which was upon Him from the day of His baptism. That was the anointing upon Him for His ministry. Intrinsically He was conceived of the Holy Spirit. So His divinity never left Him and He died God-man.

Your error here is in assuming that the bestowing of the Holy Spirit UPON Him negates His divine nature which He had intrinsically from birth -

"And the angel answered and said to her [Mary], The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore also the holy thing which is born will be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35)

He was thoroughly God mingled with humanity from conception. The "holy thing" was God interwoven with man from conception. But at the age of thirty the Holy Spirit came upon this Godman in the way of anointing to equip Him for work, for ministry.

"My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" (Matt. 27:46) was not the cry of a man who was no longer God and man united intrinsically. It was the cry of His humanity being losing the anointed Spirit of God which was upon Him from His baptism.

That is the best that I am able to determine of this rather mysterious matter. The Holy Spirit had come upon Him at baptism. And He cried of being forsaken by God as He bore the sins of the world in Himself under divine judgment.
#28
(07-23-2013, 06:35 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Silly? Here is a man of God who is so in tune with the Almighty that He can speak and bring someone back from the DEAD ! And you are hung up on whether He afterwards partook of the ceremonial washing to be "purified".
If you want to be perfectly righteous, as you say Yeshua was, then you fulfill all of Torah. In order for him to do that, he needed cleansing in accordance with Numbers 19:9, which shows a impurity and unholiness, something Hashem doesn't have.

(07-23-2013, 06:35 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: First of all let me tell you what kind of Christian apologist I am. I do not mind telling someone that a question is too hard for me to answer. If you ask something of me that is too difficult from me to figure out, I will tell you. I have no problem with that. These are matters of faith.
When you faith contradicts Torah, then it's time to move on.

(07-23-2013, 06:35 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote:
Nachshon Wrote:Explain how G-d can be with a willful sinner, an unclean person, an unholy person? If Yeshua is a godman, you have a contradiction because you have him becoming unclean/unholy, unpure, coming in contact with the dead.
The Son of God was a willful obedient person even unto death, and that the death of a cross.

The consensus of many of the experts was that God was listening to Jesus. Otherwise He could not do the things He was doing. Some of them hated that and were jealous. Or they were mad for some other religious reason. But they realized that He was so close to God that He could raise the dead.
The consensus of Christians maybe.

(07-23-2013, 06:35 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote:
Nachshon Wrote:If Numbers 19:9 ... The cleansing waters are needed to become pure again. Yeshua was contaminated by contact with the dead. Do you believe G-d came in contact with this too and needed purification? How can you be a godman when you have G-d/Spirit leaving you before death, before start of ministry, etc.?
Okay, The Spirit that left Christ as He was forsaken by the Father on the cross, was the Spirit which was upon Him from the day of His baptism. That was the anointing upon Him for His ministry. Intrinsically He was conceived of the Holy Spirit. So His divinity never left Him and He died God-man.

Your error here is in assuming that the bestowing of the Holy Spirit UPON Him negates His divine nature which He had intrinsically from birth -
You contradict yourself because if Yeshua had a divine nature, your saying Hashem came in contact with death, sin, unholiness, uncleaniness, etc. Your in error my friend.

(07-23-2013, 06:35 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" (Matt. 27:46) was not the cry of a man who was no longer God and man united intrinsically. It was the cry of His humanity being losing the anointed Spirit of God which was upon Him from His baptism.
If the son and father are ONE, Yeshua shouldn't have cried this. He should have spoken to himself. Another confirmation he is not G-d. It's pretty straight forward.
#29
Nachshon Wrote:If you want to be perfectly righteous, as you say Yeshua was, then you fulfill all of Torah.

Back to the matter of what Nicodemus and some of the Torah experts said. If God was less than 100% pleased with Him HOW could He move God to raise the dead ?

I expect a specific reply.

Nachshon Wrote:In order for him to do that, he needed cleansing in accordance with Numbers 19:9, which shows a impurity and unholiness, something Hashem doesn't have.

If there was any unholiness in Him, contrary to the will of God, HOW could He secure the cooperation of God in such a feat so as to raise the dead ?

Listen to the man healed who was born blind - "If this man were not from God, He could do nothing."

Knowing what you know from the entire Old Testament (Tanakh) does Jesus raising the dead man seem to argue against God being pleased with Him or for God being pleased with Him.

You spoke of "skirting" a matter above. Please reply to this. Does Jesus impress you as a man who could not get a prayer through to the throne of God or who could be readily heard on high ?

Psalm 66:18 - "If I regard iniquity in my heart, The Lord did not hear; But indeed God has heard; He has given heed to the voice of my prayer. Blessed be God, Who has not turned my prayer away Nor His lovingkindness from me."

A man stand before a tomb and calls out with a loud voice "Lazarus, come out!" and one dead walks out of the tomb. Is this the behavior of one with whom God has problems with concerning holiness and purity of heart ?

This resurrection was apparently the result of Jesus' request to His Father -

"But even now I know that whatever You ask God, God will give You. Jesus said to her, Your brother will rise again." (John 11:22,23)

How was Jesus able to secure such an astounding answer to prayer if He regarded any iniquity in His heart ?

Nachshon Wrote:.
When you faith contradicts Torah, then it's time to move on.

You may move on at any time you wish. No contradiction to the Old Testament at its root has been revealed. Rather I see consistency.

What I see in your complaint is a man straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Nachshon Wrote:The consensus of Christians maybe.

The important point to me here is your explanation for how a sinful and impure man before God could request the someone be raised from the dead and secure an answer.

Martha, Mary and other Jews knew that at the end of the age God would resurrect all the dead -

"Martha said to Him, I know that he will rise again in the resurrection in the last day." (v.24)

How was a man able to perform a preview of the last day and bring a dead man back to life ?
Does it suggest the petition of an unclean heart to God? Or does it suggest One Who is so pure that God would enact a foretaste of perhaps histories greatest miraculous event ?

My faith is that He was in TOTAL one accord and harmony with the Father. The suggesting of the need for purifying water is ludicrous.

Nachshon Wrote:You contradict yourself because if Yeshua had a divine nature, your saying Hashem came in contact with death, sin, unholiness, uncleaniness, etc. Your in error my friend.

No, You are wrong. Behind the ritual of Numbers 19 you think God's hands are totally tied and He cannot come to earth as the Son of God and be the Savior of those of us, including yourself, who are plagued with "death, sin, unholiness, and uncleaniness."

Thank God you are wrong. This One is the reality of your pure red heifer. No more symbolism. The reality of the typology has come in Jesus the Son of God.

Apparently the man born blind has better insight into this then you - "If this man were not from God, He could do nothing." And this is also a matter of history.

Nachshon Wrote:Another confirmation he is not G-d. It's pretty straight forward.

I trust the Gospels over your opposition to the Messiah. He is God / Man. And in Him we discern both the human nature and the Divine Being as one Person.

Now, HOW this could be is too difficult for me to explain. But of course I do not have to tell you that because the prophet Isaiah already told you that it would be too difficult to explain completely -

"His name shall be called Wonderful ..."

That is "Wonderful" or peleg as in Psalm 139:6 - "O knowledge too wonderful for me! It is high; I cannot attain to it."

I am finished this post. And if you do move on to discuss this no more, I expect you to at least tell me how one who regarded iniquity in His heart could request of God and raise the dead or cure someone born blind.

Note: My "peleg" may be incorrect in transliterating the Hebrew word for "Wonderful".
Maybe I mean peleh.
#30
(07-23-2013, 08:43 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Back to the matter of what Nicodemus and some of the Torah experts said. If God was less than 100% pleased with Him HOW could He move God to raise the dead ?

I expect a specific reply.
Wow. You haven’t answered my questions, and yet you want an answer from me? I want a specific, concrete counter-reply, but I haven’t received one from you. As I mentioned before, since I don’t believe the NT as a whole, why would I try to prove it? I don’t believe all of the NT accounts. Do you know the background surrounding Isa 7:14? Hashem spoke to King Ahab and gave him a sign, though he wasn’t righteous. Pharaoh requested that Moses/Hashem stop the plagues, and some were, though he didn’t deserve it.

(07-23-2013, 08:43 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: If there was any unholiness in Him, contrary to the will of God, HOW could He secure the cooperation of God in such a feat so as to raise the dead ?
See my answer above. Also, Hashem dealt with the false prophet Balam in Numbers 22.

(07-23-2013, 08:43 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Knowing what you know from the entire Old Testament (Tanakh) does Jesus raising the dead man seem to argue against God being pleased with Him or for God being pleased with Him.
Your asking me to comment on an event that I don’t believe happened.

(07-23-2013, 08:43 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: You spoke of "skirting" a matter above. Please reply to this. Does Jesus impress you as a man who could not get a prayer through to the throne of God or who could be readily heard on high ?
If you purposely contradict and not follow Torah, no. As Proverbs 28:9 says, (Prov 28:9) He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

(07-23-2013, 08:43 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: What I see in your complaint is a man straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel.
I see you not being able to provide an answer and so you prefer to personally attack me. That’s okay, because most other Christians have done the same. It shows me that they have no support for their conclusions.

(07-23-2013, 08:43 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: My faith is that He was in TOTAL one accord and harmony with the Father. The suggesting of the need for purifying water is ludicrous.
So you contradict the requirements of Torah. Your basis of defense is to contradict Torah, and say it doesn’t apply when you can’t answer a question? You either fulfill all of Torah, or you don’t. There’s no side-stepping the issue. In order for Yeshua to be perfect, he would have fulfilled this mitzvah, or he would be unclean and been cut-off from Israel for entering the temple in this state. Read Numbers 19 again. And by fulfilling this mitzvah, it acknowledges he is not G-d. Plain and simple.

(07-23-2013, 08:43 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: No, You are wrong. Behind the ritual of Numbers 19 you think God's hands are totally tied and He cannot come to earth as the Son of God and be the Savior of those of us, including yourself, who are plagued with "death, sin, unholiness, and uncleaniness."
Hashem is limited to truth, He is not a liar or a man, Numbers 23:19. So, if he gave instructions in the Torah, do you think it unfair to expect your own son to follow and set an example for others?

(07-23-2013, 08:43 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: I trust the Gospels over your opposition to the Messiah. He is God / Man. And in Him we discern both the human nature and the Divine Being as one Person.
I trust the Torah over your words. Thank G-d, the Torah is right. (Ps 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.


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