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Yeshua and the Red Heifer
#31
Nachshon Wrote:You haven’t answered my questions

Now I have to review whether this charge you make is accurate or not. As I glance above I see I answered quite specifically your question about the Spirit leaving Jesus.

Do you mean I didn't answer or you were not persuaded?

I don't promise that I will persuade you. But where I see your question marks I don't think evasion is my usual response at all.

Before I even read the rest of your reply I will review to see what QUESTION you say I did not answer (not persuade you but answer).

One more thing. I got the impression that you were about to "move on" as you said. ie. stop talking to me about this. So I submitted one final question.

Now let me see what question you say I gave you no reply on for your "Wow" astonishment.
#32
I have read this thread from the beginning to a point to be satisfied that nowhere was Nachshon evaded. Rather I answered his questions though sometimes clarification of the issue was needed. Nachshon was not persuaded. But he was not evaded.

Then we have this comment that I thought to address now :

Nachshon Wrote:If the son and father are ONE, Yeshua shouldn't have cried this. He should have spoken to himself. Another confirmation he is not G-d. It's pretty straight forward.

To the natural mind it may be straighfoward except for these facts:

1.) He was a man. And a man is capable of being forsaken by God.

2.) He taught that He was a man as well as God, and that the God of the Old Testament.

3.) He acted the part perfectly and God apparently backed up His words and actions.

4.) He being innocent and fully righteous came to shed His blood for our propitiation.

5.) God vindicated Him in this also by raising Him from the dead.


Now I told Nachshon that I have no problem admitting that a question is too difficult for me to answer I will inform Him. Now's the time.

HOW this could be that a man is God and man to die for me crying out "My God, My God Why have You forsaken Me." I cannot fully explain.

However the prophesy of Isaiah was that I would not be able to explain it because His name is called Wonderful. This the same Hebrew word used when God tells a Abraham -

"Is ANYTHING TOO HARD for Jehovah" (Genesis 18:14 my emphasis )

It is the same word used when God tells Manoah and his wife -

"And the Angel of Jehovah said to him, Why do you ask abut My name, since it is wonderful ?" (Judges 13:18)

(Manoah and his wife had seen God )

"And the Angel of Jehovah did not appear against to Manoah and his wife. Then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of Jehovah. And Manoah said to his wife, We will surely die, for we have seen God." (vs. 21,22)

This was the same word used in Psalm 199 when David not even understanding God's involvement with his own creation, let alone God's being, said -

"O knowledge too wonderful for me! It is high; I cannot attain to it." (v.6)

How God could live on earth as a sinless man is "high" knowledge to which I cannot attain. It is wonderful. But this Person is "unto us". This Person is for us, for our benefit, for our enjoyment, for our experience and blessing.

Aren't there some things in the world difficult to explain though we may still enjoy their reality.
I enjoy (usually) the benefits of the law of gravity. I cannot explain Einstien's concept of space - time being curved. I do not know what "curved" space is. Gravity is suppose to be the effect of the curvature of space time around mass.

Yet gravity is "unto us" in a sense - for our benefit and enjoyment. Much more the Son given Who is called Eternal Father. Much more for our blessing the Child born who is called Mighty God.

God did this because God knew that the sons of Adam could be saved from the condemnation of the Law in no other way. We are not told that he who can explain shall be saved. We are told that whosoever believes shall be saved.

Maybe the only way we could comprehend the incarnation is some measure is if we are swallowed up in the divine life at the consummation of Christ's salvation:

"For also, we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but be clothed upon, that WHAT IS MORTAL MAY BE SWALLOWED UP BY [Divine] LIFE." (2 Cor. 5:5)

God's salvation is to fill us, saturate us, permeate us, and finally swallow us up in divine eternal life.
To those who believe into Christ He gives His Holy Spirit as a pledge, a foretaste of a fuller enjoyment to come -

"Now He who has wrought us for this very thing [the swallowing up of the previous verse] is God, who has given to us [the Christian] the Spirit as a pledge." (v.5)

Nachshon holds the Christian's feet to the fire - " HOW could God be on earth needing purification of water from Numbers 19 ?"

Nachshon, do you have an easier question for me ? He is too Wonderful. I cannot explain this fully.

My typo - Psalm 199 was meant to read Psalm 139.

FMS Wrote:Now I told Nachshon that I have no problem admitting that a question is too difficult for me to answer I will inform Him. Now's the time.

I meant to write that I have no problem admitting to a question that is too difficult for me to answer.

And "Him" should not have been capitalized.
#33
Nachshon Wrote:Wow. You haven’t answered my questions, and yet you want an answer from me? I want a specific, concrete counter-reply, but I haven’t received one from you. As I mentioned before, since I don’t believe the NT as a whole, why would I try to prove it?

I think if you really believed the Old Testament you would begin to believe the NT.

For example, Isaiah 9:6, Jeremiah 31:33, Isaiah 53 and this -

"Indeed, I am Jehovah, the God of all flesh. Is anything too wonderful for Me?" (Jer. 32:27)

Nachshon Wrote:I don’t believe all of the NT accounts. Do you know the background ..."

Latter maybe I'll comment.

Nachshon Wrote:See my answer above. Also, Hashem dealt with the false prophet Balam in Numbers 22.

Maybe I have not read this yet. I am not sure how it is relevant.

There are light years of difference between Jesus and Balaam. No comparison.

Nachshon Wrote:Your asking me to comment on an event that I don’t believe happened.

My concern is also with your belief in the Tanakh.
One can see the difference between faithfully standing on belief in the Tanakh and just plain stubbornness.

Jeremiah prophesied of a new covenant.
God said He would do a new thing.

How do you know you are not simply being stubborn about what Hashem said ?



Nachshon Wrote:If you purposely contradict and not follow Torah, no. As Proverbs 28:9 says, (Prov 28:9) He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

My ear is all the more attentive since a Man has come who taught and BEHAVED as the Mighty God born of a virgin and a Son given indeed who manifested the Eternal Father. And who in addition said He established a new covenant in His blood for the forgivness of sins.

And my experience is that if I go to God and remind Him of my past sins He does not remember them. He doesn't know what I am talking about. They are GONE !!

Not because He sloppily dismissed them from sentimental preference for me. But because God JUDGED them on the cross of Jesus on Calvary. My sins and iniquities He will by no mean remember any more.

I believe I am surely partaking of the new covenant in this regard.

Nachshon Wrote:I see you not being able to provide an answer ....

As to HOW God and man could be so united in one Person, I cannot tell you HOW.

The essence of your complaint is that God should need NO PURIFICATION. I agree. But the Man needed no purification for He was sinless.

By saying Christ is God we are not saying Christ is not a man. By saying He is a man we are not saying He is not God.

God also should not have to repent? Why does Genesis say that God was sorry that He made man on the earth before the flood?

"And Jehovah repented that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him in His heart." (Genesis 6:6)

What do we do ? Should we say it doesn't SAY that ? But it DOES.
Will you hide behind Hebrew grammar ?

How about I just believe that God did something that grieved Him to His heart the way it turned out. And such that God repented.

The Man could sin but did not. The Man needed no purification by purified for all the other men and woman poisoned by sins entrance into the world.

The Man taught that He was God the Son. They understood what He was at least SAYING and in spite of the fact that He acted that way, they sought to execute Him for SAYING it.

God raised Him from the dead. If He was a lying prophet then God could have left Him in the tomb. He did not. God vindicated Him in resurrection.

This was according to what we were told in Isaiah 53 anyway - "When He makes Himself an offering for sin, He will see a seed, He will EXTEND His days [in resurrection] And the pleasure of Jehovah will prosper in His hand, He will see [the fruit] of the travail [unto DEATH] of His soul." (Isa. 53:10b-11a)


Nachshon Wrote:So you contradict the requirements of Torah. Your basis of defense is to contradict Torah, and say it doesn’t apply when you can’t answer a question?

Point out the real need for Jesus to be purified because of real impurity. Physical washing is too superficial.

I understand that you assume rightly that God has no need of purification. But prove that Christ had need of purification.

Don't judge according to appearance. Judge rightly. Where is the evidence in Jesus of impurity in any thought, inclination, motive, desire, action ? It is too superficial for you to point to this ceremonial matter of water washing.

Not only is it too superficial for the NT. It was already shown by God in the Old Testament that the religionists often missed the point in favor of meticulous adherence to ceremonial correctness.

Ie. "Bring no more vain offerings; Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and Sabbath, the calling of convocations - I cannot beariniquity and the solemn assembly." (Isaiah 1:13)

You say you believe the Tanakh ? How did you miss believing this ?

"You new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They have become a burden on Me; I am weary of bearing [them].

Thus, when you spread forth your hands, I will hide My eyes from you; Even though you multiply [your] prayers, I will not hear. Your hands are full of blood." (v.15)


Can you see God not caring about the ceremonial water of Numbers 19 for the sake of a righteous man who is so pure as to request the raising of the DEAD and receive immediate answer ?

But Man SAYS also that He is God the Son.

In Jesus God had a Man on the earth to thoroughly heed His desire of Israel -

"Wash yourselves; cleanse yourselves. Turn away the evil of your deeds from before My eyes. Cease doing what is evil; Learn to do good. Seek justice; Correct the ruthless. Defend the orphan; Plead for the widow."

Jesus embodied this righteous behavior. And He taught that He was the Son of God - to see Him was to see the Father. He manifest in humanity the Father.

Amos 5:21 - "I hate, I despise, your feasts, and I will not delight in your solemn assemblies. For if you offer up to Me burnt offerings and your meal offerings, I will not accept them; Nor will I regard the peace offerings of your fatted animals.

Take the noise of your songs away from Me, For I will not hear the melody of your harps. But let justice roll down like water, and righteousness, like an ever-flowing river,"


Can't you see God being fed up with religious façade ? I mean in any sense. You cannot see His heart on a man who manifests Him perfectly to the preference of ceremonial holy water ?

And the man teaches that He is God become a man.

Nachshon Wrote:You either fulfill all of Torah, or you don’t. There’s no side-stepping the issue.

What about the Tanakh as a whole? What about Amos 5:21 and Isaiah 1:13?

What about God finally obtaining in a man His required righteous human living to the uttermost rather than sinning and vain ceremonial details ?

Nachshon Wrote:In order for Yeshua to be perfect, he would have fulfilled this mitzvah, or he would be unclean and been cut-off from Israel for entering the temple in this state.

What we see is Him being CUT OFF but not for His own sins but for ours. He is the reality of your red heifer.

Nachshon Wrote:Read Numbers 19 again. And by fulfilling this mitzvah, it acknowledges he is not G-d. Plain and simple.

Why don't you read the four Gospels. I mean apart from your articles designed for counter missionary work.

You cannot see a man who pleased God to the uttermost ? I can. And He said that He was Son of God. He said he was God the Son. He said He was in the Father and the Father was in Him and to see Him was to see the Father.

How about I believe that this is the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy ?

Nachshon Wrote:Hashem is limited to truth, He is not a liar or a man, Numbers 23:19.

We discussed that elsewhere. And I said that if He should become a man and say He is a man then that ALSO cannot be a lie.

We talked about that.

Nachshon Wrote:So, if he gave instructions in the Torah, do you think it unfair to expect your own son to follow and set an example for others?

In both the case of Elisha's raising a dead boy and Jesus raising Lazarus no details of Numbers 19 are there. At the very least God wants us to focus upon something ELSE or else the details of following prescribed washings would have been included.

Is it possible that you are missing a point ? I will be happy to read again Numbers 19.

Stop here.

Nachshon Wrote:I trust the Torah over your words. Thank G-d, the Torah is right. (Ps 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

What about the entire Old Testament ? What about Abraham believed God and God accounted to him for righteousness ? What about the Suffering Messiah offering Himself as the perfect atoning sacrifice for our sins and God vindicating the sacrifice by raising Him from the dead ?

This is what I believe - the whole Old Testament and New Testament.

Now when I wrote a post this long I have trouble correcting typos. I hope I have none in this long post.
#34
(07-24-2013, 09:25 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: I think if you really believed the Old Testament you would begin to believe the NT.

For example, Isaiah 9:6, Jeremiah 31:33, Isaiah 53 and this -
As a whole, the NT contradicts Torah, so why would I accept it? I've spoken about these verses before.

(07-24-2013, 09:25 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: My concern is also with your belief in the Tanakh.

One can see the difference between faithfully standing on belief in the Tanakh and just plain stubbornness.
So why are you being stubborn and not accepting the Torah requirements that Yeshua must follow to be perfect?

(07-24-2013, 09:25 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Jeremiah prophesied of a new covenant.
Show me with facts how Jer 31 is being fulfilled today.

(07-24-2013, 09:25 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: My ear is all the more attentive since a Man has come who taught and BEHAVED as the Mighty God born of a virgin and a Son given indeed who manifested the Eternal Father. And who in addition said He established a new covenant in His blood for the forgivness of sins.
Follow your man, and I'll follow Hashem with His Torah.

(07-24-2013, 09:25 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: The essence of your complaint is that God should need NO PURIFICATION. I agree. But the Man needed no purification for He was sinless.
Then if you believe this, and believe Yeshua must follow Torah, you'll see the contradiction that Yeshua is pure, and needs to wash in the purification waters of Numbers 19.

(07-24-2013, 09:25 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: "And Jehovah repented that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him in His heart." (Genesis 6:6)

What do we do ? Should we say it doesn't SAY that ? But it DOES.
Will you hide behind Hebrew grammar ?
I'm not hiding. Rather, the meaning hides from you since you don't understand Hebrew. The word repented, in Hebrew nachem, means reconsidered as well. The word grieved, in Hebrew atzev, means renounce or break as well. The word heart, in Hebrew lev, means conjoin or center, power, as well.

So, Hashem is breaking/limiting mankind's lifespan due to man's sins, not due to any change or regret from Hashem. Sin has its wages. This explanation agrees with Numbers 23:19.

(07-24-2013, 09:25 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: This was according to what we were told in Isaiah 53 anyway - "When He makes Himself an offering for sin, He will see a seed, He will EXTEND His days [in resurrection] And the pleasure of Jehovah will prosper in His hand, He will see [the fruit] of the travail [unto DEATH] of His soul." (Isa. 53:10b-11a)
Where's Yeshua's seed? He can't fulfill Deut 17:14-20. So, even if you wanted to belief Yeshua is the servant in Isa 53, his death invalidates him from ever fulfilling the requirements for King Messiah in Deut 17:14-20
due to his resurrection explanation. His words, not mine.

(07-24-2013, 09:25 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Point out the real need for Jesus to be purified because of real impurity. Physical washing is too superficial.
Numbers 19 points out the need - physical impurity. He either follows Torah or not.

(07-24-2013, 09:25 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Don't judge according to appearance. Judge rightly. Where is the evidence in Jesus of impurity in any thought, inclination, motive, desire, action ? It is too superficial for you to point to this ceremonial matter of water washing.
I'm not judging, the Torah in Numbers 19 points out the need. Contact with the dead is the issue. Talk to Hashem about your reservations. He makes the rules, not I.

(07-24-2013, 09:25 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: What we see is Him being CUT OFF but not for His own sins but for ours. He is the reality of your red heifer.
Interesting because the person who applies the ritual waters becomes impure himself. So, if Yeshua is applying his blood of the heifer, then he becomes impure as a result too.

(07-24-2013, 09:25 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: In both the case of Elisha's raising a dead boy and Jesus raising Lazarus no details of Numbers 19 are there. At the very least God wants us to focus upon something ELSE or else the details of following prescribed washings would have been included.
The assumption should be that a prophet follows Torah unless specifically told otherwise by Hashem himself. We don't see this in Elisha account. And, if Yeshua is perfect in observance, then he has to become clean just like every other man.

(07-24-2013, 09:25 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: What about the entire Old Testament ? What about Abraham believed God and God accounted to him for righteousness ? What about the Suffering Messiah offering Himself as the perfect atoning sacrifice for our sins and God vindicating the sacrifice by raising Him from the dead ?
None of this has anything to do with the thread. Abraham was considered righteous by his deeds. Where does the Tanakh teach about a suffering messiah?
#35
(07-24-2013, 09:09 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(07-24-2013, 09:25 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: I think if you really believed the Old Testament you would begin to believe the NT.

For example, Isaiah 9:6, Jeremiah 31:33, Isaiah 53 and this -
As a whole, the NT contradicts Torah, so why would I accept it? I've spoken about these verses before.

If you do not believe that a new covenant has been established when it IS established will it, as God SAID be "a new covenant NOT like the covenant which I made with their fathers ..." (Jer. 31:32)

You speak of contradiction. Will the new covenant you are expecting be LIKE the covenant God made with the fathers or will it be "not like" the covenant God made with the fathers ?


Nachshon Wrote:So why are you being stubborn and not accepting the Torah requirements that Yeshua must follow to be perfect?

You should know that you are an imperfect sinner. So how are you so sure you would recognize perfection in a man if it should come ?

Your failure to believe in God's Son of perfection could be because your own condition makes it hard for you to know a absolutely pure man towards God if He should come.

There were many outstanding figures in the Old Testament. None perfect but nevertheless very upright. I can see that without exception they all fell short of the testimony of Jesus of Nazareth. This is why complaining that David, Solomon, or Hezekiah is the ultimate referent of some splendid prophecies does not make sense as much as them ultimately pointing to Jesus.

Nachshon Wrote:Show me with facts how Jer 31 is being fulfilled today.

In part I already did. If you believe into Messiah your sins and your iniquities He will by no means remember any more. And you'll know it in your being.

And since the resurrection God has had a people who are His people according to His inscribing His law of life into their inner being.

Did you read that the stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner ? (Psalm 118:11; Acts 4:11)

Jesus said to them, have you never read in the Scriptures, "The stone which the builders rejected, this has become the head of the corner. This was from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes" ?

Therefore I say to you that the kingdom of God shall be taken fro you and shall be given to a nation producing its fruit.

And he who falls on this stone shall be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it shall crush him to powder and scatter him like chaff." (Matt. 21:42-44)


I believe that this has come to pass. And it is still coming to pass. There is some yet unfulfilled prophecy. But I fell on this Stone and was wonderfully broken to pieces. Its not so bad you know. But yet to come is this Stone's falling on the nations. Then He will break them into pieces. At that time Israel will turn, repent and recognize their Messiah. I believe this is being fulfilled.

You have a chance to come into this realization early before Israel as a nation. It will be a little humbling. But wonderful too. That the rejecting nation would be made jealous for a season of a "foolish nation" was also prophesied. These things are taking place now.

And Isaiah is very bold and says, " I was found by those who did not seek Me; I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me." (Romans 10:20 quoting Isaiah 65:1) [/b]

Paul (formerly Saul of Tarsus) was a very learned rabbi brought up under a great rabbi Gamaliel. He persecuted the Christians to the extreme. Then the resurrected Christ appeared to him. God used this man to write 13 or so books of the 27 New Testament books.

I don't think you know the Hebrew religion better than Paul did. He received revelation from God.



Nachshon Wrote:Follow your man, and I'll follow Hashem with His Torah.

And you will be condemned by the Law for by works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.

Do you think God will play favorites on a big sinner like you ? He is no respector of persons. You better avail yourself of eternal redemption found in the death and resurrection of the Son of God for guilty sinners.

Nachshon Wrote:Then if you believe this, and believe Yeshua must follow Torah, you'll see the contradiction that Yeshua is pure, and needs to wash in the purification waters of Numbers 19.

Show me water that takes away your lust.
Show me a washing in water that eliminates your envy and coveting. Do you have some ashes and water that can cure a man's greedy desire for fornication ?

The revelation of God is progressive through the Bible. And our need for purification goes much deeper than any ashes and water can accomplish. If you fail to realize this what will you do when you come before God on the day of judgment ?

The purification we need is in the eternal redemption of the Son of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit of regeneration.



Nachshon Wrote:I'm not hiding. Rather, the meaning hides from you since you don't understand Hebrew. The word repented, in Hebrew nachem, means reconsidered as well. The word grieved, in Hebrew atzev, means renounce or break as well. The word heart, in Hebrew lev, means conjoin or center, power, as well.

I don't mind your educating me on the finer nuances of the Hebrew word. But I don't see how your explanation made that much more difference. So God renounced and made a break with something that He did. Yet His work is perfect and what He does stands forever.

To me it makes sense because the center of the divine revelation is Christ and His act to redeem the sinners of both Israel and the world. So the whole Old Testament makes sense that it is a preview into that one central accomplishment of Christ's redemption.

You appeal to word definitions really doesn't make that much of a difference.

Nachshon Wrote:So, Hashem is breaking/limiting mankind's lifespan due to man's sins, not due to any change or regret from Hashem. Sin has its wages. This explanation agrees with Numbers 23:19.

I can see this. However do not twist the passage either. God brings in the flood because of the grief of His heart and the repentance of His heart.

You see, the Old Testament is needed to set the ground work for God's hatred, sadness and judgment of sin to furnish the backround for why the redemption of the Son of God is so important. The Gospel of Luke would not make much sense immediately following Genesis or Exodus.

Paul called the Tanakh "the ministry of condemnation" . Over and over again we had to see the Divine attitude against sin in order to appreciate that finally ALL sins were judged in the Savior on His cross on behalf of all mankind.

By seeing His hatred for sin and death we should be able to appreciate what it meant for Him in His love to send the Son to be our Redeemer taking our sins in Himself up to the cross under divine judgment.

Again, this is all prophesied in Isaiah chapter 53.

Nachshon Wrote:Where's Yeshua's seed?

You are speaking to one of His seed right now. I am. Many others are also of this "foolish nation" who did not seek Him but were found by Him.

Here are His seed in a very practical sense on the five continents of the globe - http://www.localchurches.org

And there are many others of His seed as well.

"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there cannot be slave nor free man, there cannot be male and female; for you are all one in Christ.

And if you are of Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise." (Galatians 3:26-29)


If you reject the Lord and Savior you will perish forever. But the meek who will inherit the earth.

Nachshon Wrote:He can't fulfill Deut 17:14-20. So, even if you wanted to belief Yeshua is the servant in Isa 53, his death invalidates him from ever fulfilling the requirements for King Messiah in Deut 17:14-20
due to his resurrection explanation. His words, not mine.

You are simply attempting to jury rig the words of the Bible to assure that Yeshua cannot possibly be the fulfillment of prophecy. I see in this more cleverness than sound biblical thinking.

You're jury rigging the requirements to shut the door to history's most astounding manifestation of divinity in a man that has ever existed.

Do you think your Messiah to come other than Jesus will be a stronger manifestation of a man absolute for the will of God than Jesus ?

Why don't you read the Gospels on their own merit putting away your jury rigging counter missionary resources for once ?

Nachshon Wrote:Numbers 19 points out the need - physical impurity. He either follows Torah or not.

You had nothing to say about my pointing out Isaiah 1:13 and Amos and many many other places in the Tanakh where God speaks of His displeasure with the futile façade of ceremonial details in favor of the weightier matters of His commands for justice, mercy, etc.

This is the Old Testament speaking. Jesus just embodied the contrast the most. He healed on the Sabbath to their aggravation. It was the power struggle and control of the people that was an announce to them. They were enraged with covetousness. The last commandment among the ten is "You shall not covet." They coveted the influence this man had. They could not raise the dead, perform the miracles or teach with such authority. So in raging jealousy they attacked on grounds of superficial things which they could barely control, like you holy water or Sabbath keeping.



Nachshon Wrote:I'm not judging, the Torah in Numbers 19 points out the need. Contact with the dead is the issue. Talk to Hashem about your reservations. He makes the rules, not I.

I am talking to Hashem but not about that. I am talking to God about Him having mercy on you to open your spiritual eyes.

Nachshon Wrote:Interesting because the person who applies the ritual waters becomes impure himself. So, if Yeshua is applying his blood of the heifer, then he becomes impure as a result too.


Professing to be wise they became fools.
I see only in all of this your self deceiving cleverness.

You with your ample does of the red heifer water cannot call forth the dead to come out of the tomb with a word.

Who is a better candidate to have had God listen to a prayer, you or Jesus ?

I believe that as a man He was completely pure. And so His harmony with the Father was manifested so dramatically in word and in deed.

How come none of the Pharisees with the sprinkled heifer water could not bring Lazarus back from the dead ? But this man (as to whether washing was involved is not said) speaks loudly - "Lazarus, Come out!" and the man was loosed from the ultimate bondage - DEATH itself.

That God approved of Jesus was manifested heifer water or no heifer water.

(07-24-2013, 09:25 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: In both the case of Elisha's raising a dead boy and Jesus raising Lazarus no details of Numbers 19 are there. At the very least God wants us to focus upon something ELSE or else the details of following prescribed washings would have been included.
The assumption should be that a prophet follows Torah unless specifically told otherwise by Hashem himself. We don't see this in Elisha account. And, if Yeshua is perfect in observance, then he has to become clean just like every other man.

Nachshon Wrote:None of this has anything to do with the thread. Abraham was considered righteous by his deeds. Where does the Tanakh teach about a suffering messiah?

The Scripture specifically tells us that God accounted Abraham's belief towards God as righteousness (Genesis 15:6). I do not say that he was not considered righteous in many of his deeds. But " ... it was not through the law that the promise was made to Abraham or to his seed that he would be the heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith." (Rom. 4:13)

I don't think you knew or understood the Tanakh as well as Paul. For one he was two thousand years closer to the events of the Old Testament than you. And he took the initiative to wipe out the Christians he was so convinced that these believing Jesus followers among the Jews were in error.

The law was given mostly to expose the hopelessness of self justification through it. James was a New Testament writer. James had a high regard for the Torah and said that if someone offends in any point of it he is guilty as having broken the entire law.

James 2:10 - "For whoever keeps the whole law yet stumbles in one point has become guilty of all. For He who said, Do not commit adultery, also said, Do not murder. Now if you do not commit adultery, but you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law."

The Torah is holy and spiritual and good. But its chief function was to prove to YOU what God already knows. You cannot live up to His righteous demand.

So we need first, redemption in a perfect real red heifer. This real red heifer and this real every other offering to God is the Son of God.

Now BOTH the conquering Messiah and the suffering Messiah are prophesied in the Old Testament. Here a glimpse and there a glimpse. As God has said - here a little and there a little - line upon line, precept upon precept.

In pieces of the puzzle the varied aspects of this one all inclusive Person are seen - BOTH His victorious reigning for Israel and His dying for our sins as a suffering one.
#36
(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: You speak of contradiction. Will the new covenant you are expecting be LIKE the covenant God made with the fathers or will it be "not like" the covenant God made with the fathers ?
Read Jer 31, the covenant still involves Torah.

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: You should know that you are an imperfect sinner. So how are you so sure you would recognize perfection in a man if it should come ?
Personal attacks - thank you!

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: In part I already did. If you believe into Messiah your sins and your iniquities He will by no means remember any more. And you'll know it in your being.
You showed nothing of the kind. Reread Jer 31.

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: And Isaiah is very bold and says, " I was found by those who did not seek Me; I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me." (Romans 10:20 quoting Isaiah 65:1) [/b]
Isaiah 65:1 speaks of Israel, Isaiah 65:9. Read the context in between.

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Paul (formerly Saul of Tarsus) was a very learned rabbi brought up under a great rabbi Gamaliel. He persecuted the Christians to the extreme. Then the resurrected Christ appeared to him. God used this man to write 13 or so books of the 27 New Testament books.
We don't know if he was a Rabbi, but we do know he was an apostate as attested to by Eusebius, a church historian.

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: And you will be condemned by the Law for by works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.
Funny, I give scripture, you give me your opinion, blah blah. Prov 6:23.

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Show me water that takes away your lust.
Show me a washing in water that eliminates your envy and coveting. Do you have some ashes and water that can cure a man's greedy desire for fornication ?
You didn't answer the question.

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: I don't mind your educating me on the finer nuances of the Hebrew word. But I don't see how your explanation made that much more difference. So God renounced and made a break with something that He did. Yet His work is perfect and what He does stands forever.
Then, you didn't learn from the Hebrew.

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: I can see this. However do not twist the passage either. God brings in the flood because of the grief of His heart and the repentance of His heart.
It's not twisting, it's just that the truth doesn't fit within your paradigm.

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: You are speaking to one of His seed right now. I am. Many others are also of this "foolish nation" who did not seek Him but were found by Him.
Then, you'd keep the commandments, right? The seed is physical, there's no mistaking that.

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: You are simply attempting to jury rig the words of the Bible to assure that Yeshua cannot possibly be the fulfillment of prophecy. I see in this more cleverness than sound biblical thinking.
The truth will set you free...

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: You had nothing to say about my pointing out Isaiah 1:13 and Amos and many many other places in the Tanakh where God speaks of His displeasure with the futile façade of ceremonial details in favor of the weightier matters of His commands for justice, mercy, etc.
Isaiah 66:22-23

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: I am talking to Hashem but not about that. I am talking to God about Him having mercy on you to open your spiritual eyes.
You can talk, but He's not hearing, Prov 28:9.

Don't talk with your emotions. It serves no purpose.
#37
(07-25-2013, 12:52 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: You speak of contradiction. Will the new covenant you are expecting be LIKE the covenant God made with the fathers or will it be "not like" the covenant God made with the fathers ?
Read Jer 31, the covenant still involves Torah.

The new covenant involves the law of the life of God. Every life has a law. The law of a cat involves the ability to catch mice. The law of horse involves the ability run with great energy. Every life has a law of that life.

God has the law of His own life. And the new covenant involves the imparting of something living into something else living - a blending of God's life into man's life. This is to receive Christ as the life giving Spirit into our human spirit.

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
In that it is receiving a Person to "organically" unite with our innermost being it is "not like the covenant that I made with their fathers".

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: You should know that you are an imperfect sinner. So how are you so sure you would recognize perfection in a man if it should come ?
Personal attacks - thank you! [/quote]

It is not a personal attack. The same would apply to me much more. Unless God opens our eyes in revelation we probably would oppose Jesus for this or that foolish reason thinking we were more righteous than the Son of God.

Not a personal attack rather a call to humility and repentance. Open your eyes and see that this Man is God's Son.

Rabbi Saul was so blind to persecute the followers of Jesus. And Jesus appeared to Him saying "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me." This zealous rabbi who had been brought up under the teacher strict Pharisee tradition - "Who are you Lord? And Jesus replied "I am Jesus Whom you persecute. But rise and enter into the city, and it will be told to you what you must do." (See Acts 9)

Paul received the Holy Spirit (v.17). Paul received Jesus Himself in His form as the Holy Spirit. In his letter to the Galatians he wrote - "But when it pleased God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me that I might preach Him among the nations ..." (Gal. 1:15,16)

It pleased God to reveal the Son of God IN Paul - "to reveal His Son in me". Paul entered into the new covenant where God in Messiah was imparted INTO Paul just like He had been imparted into the Christian he as persecuting.

By persecuting these lovers of Jesus Paul learned that he was really just persecuting Jesus who had been dispensed into each one of them - "Saul, Saul, Why do you persecute Me? They had become JOINED to Christ. And now Paul like them had Christ revealed IN him.

This was the God of Israel inscribing His laws into their hearts as a living matter of His life giving Holy Spirit. God had said He would give them a new spirit into them -

Ezekiel 36:26 - "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and My ordinances you shall keep and do."

You see this Spirit that God says He will put into us contains the Man Jesus. It is the Spirit of God within which is the Son - the man Jesus the Messiah. These words are trustworthy and reliable.

Christ today is the life giving Spirit - even the eternal Spirit. We can receive Messiah as Holy Spirit into our human spirit to be born again, to be regenerated -

http://www.regenerated.net

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: In part I already did. If you believe into Messiah your sins and your iniquities He will by no means remember any more. And you'll know it in your being.
You showed nothing of the kind. Reread Jer 31. [/quote]

I can only repeat that if you believe into the Lord Jesus you will know more deeply than you have ever known anything - that your sins have been forgiven. The witness of the Holy Spirit will give you the assurance -

Romans 8:16 - "The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God".

There is hardly any arguing with the Spirit of God which is the Spirit of Jesus Christ today. The peace the passes understanding will be that assurance you have longed for that you are right with God -

"And they will no longer teach, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for all of them will know Me, from the little one among them even to the great one among them, declares Jehovah, for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (Jeremiah 31:34)

This is part of the new covenant. What separates us from intimate enjoyment of God's presence is our real sins of real guilt. When we come to Jesus our sins are cleansed away in His eternal redemption. The barrier is removed. The obstacle which kept us out of the presence of God is removed in the blood of Jesus. And then there is no problem to us coming forward to commune with the Father.

So again I urge you to believe that the reality of that red heifer and of every other allegorical type offering is Yeshua.

And everyone who comes to Him He shall by no means cast out. But we need to step forward in faith and COME just as we are, acknowledging that we are sinners. You may be a Torahless sinner or a sinner seeking to keep the law of Torah. Regardless, our sins have made a separation that only can be removed in the redemption of Jesus Christ the Messiah.


(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: And Isaiah is very bold and says, " I was found by those who did not seek Me; I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me." (Romans 10:20 quoting Isaiah 65:1) [/b]
Isaiah 65:1 speaks of Israel, Isaiah 65:9. Read the context in between. [/quote]

When you realize that the New Testament is indeed the oracles of God Almighty and not some human opinion of the Tanakh, you will realize that the context of Romans 10:20 is crucial on its own standing (as well as Isaiah 65:1).

I love the book of Isaiah. I appreciate you drawing my attention to the context of Isaiah 65. But the New Testament is the word of God. And I must regard the Apostle Paul's reference to that passage on its own context within his epistle to the Romans. That letter of the New Testament is also the inspired oracles of God - JUST LIKE Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, or the book of Isaiah.

Anytime someone challenges me to go back and read the context an Old Testament passage, I am eager and do not mind at all. I told you that this Old Testament is my book as well. I love it. I love it because now I see Christ in it. I see the central figure.

Suppose you saw a big picture of a lion. But in the backround of the picture also trees and rocks and streams and mountains and clouds, but you failed to see what was in the center of picture - this huge lion. The center of the Tanakh is Yeshua the Messiah, the Son of God.

In every page almost this big picture of Messiah Jesus is there in every book of the Old Testament. You'd be surprised. I could show you.

Did you know that even the promise land itself, the good land of Canaan is a picture of the Son of God ? Anyway it is too soon.
You see the picture. You may see the trees in the backround. You may see the clouds and the mountains. But do you see the big lion in the middle of the picture.

I point out to you that there I this big lion right in the middle of the picture that you are missing. You are even fighting against seeing it.

Jesus, after His resurrection, told His now overjoyed disciples -

"And He said to them, O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory?

And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, He explained to them clearly in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself." (Luke 24:25-27)


He opened their eyes to see that all that the prophets had spoken had Himself as the focus. And again after His resurrection -

"And He said to them, These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concerning Me must be fulfilled.

Then He opened their mid to understand the Scriptures; And He said to them, Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day, And that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things." (Luke 24:44-48)


I encourage you to read the Gospel of Luke aside from your Christianity opposing articles just once from cover to cover.

I Lost Some Reply and will skip down ----

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: And you will be condemned by the Law for by works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.
Funny, I give scripture, you give me your opinion, blah blah. Prov 6:23. [/quote]

Either I am blah, blahing or maybe I am your friend telling you the truth which will save your being. But not me the Bible.

Proverbs 6:23 - "For the commandment is a lamp, and the teaching a light, And the reproofs of instruction are the way of life."

I say AMEN! Why should I have any problem with God's word being a lamp or His commandments reproof or instructions that lead to life ?

Now, included in those instructions and reproofs and commandments are the indication that my sins and iniquities and transgressions need to be taken away completely.

When I believe into the Lamb of God for eternal redemption and receive the Holy Spirit to be born again His word CONTINUES to be light and reproof and instruction leading to life.

The only difference is that my record of sins has been taken away before God, not symbolically covered by bulls and goats, but by the precious blood of Son of God, Messiah. And He now is imparted into me as Holy Spirit enabling me to walk in a way of blending and joining with One who kept the righteousness of the law perfectly.

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

Of course His commandment is light and reproof. And it with the New Testament has reproved me to realize that I am crucified with Christ and raised to walk in newness of life with Christ.

Before I told you that Jesus said He was the stone which the builders rejected. And that whoever falls on Him will be broken. There is something in the fallen Adam nature which cannot be cured. It cannot be reformed. It cannot be improved or refined.

It must be BROKEN. When you receive Jesus something in you will be broken. And in that breaking the power of Satan in you also is broken. You learn to walk in union with God Himself in an organic blending.

This pioneering rabbi Jewish Paul wrote under the inspiration of God -

" For I through the law have died to the law that I might live to God.

I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life that I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

I do not nullify the grace of God.; for if righteousness is through law, then Christ has died for nothing." (Galatians 2:19-21)


Listen. The New Covenant is about Messiah taking up your guilt into Himself and being judged by God on your behalf. Your sins and iniquities then being judged by God on the cross in Jesus, God will by no means remember any more. He looks upon you as if you had never sinned at all.

Your righteousness before God become Christ Himself. Your history is now Christ. Your legacy is now Christ. Your past record is now Christ. The Messiah is now your entire past before God. You are clothed in Messiah with Whom God ALONE was completely pleased.

And this Messiah - Yeshua the Beloved, enters into your innermost spirit. You open your heart and He in His pneumatic form as life giving Spirit joins to you to spread His life and nature more and more into your whole being.

This is man coming BACK to the tree of life. This is the flaming sword of God's righteousness removed for you. This is the holy requirement being met for you and on your behalf. This is one who was gloriously righteous meeting the demand of God's glory on your behalf.

You are clothed in Christ - your ONLY effective covering in the day of judgement.

" Lord God I stand before you clothed in Christ my only covering. I stand before Your sinless perfect glory with Messiah as my righteousness and glorious dress. "

You spoke of Proverbs which I love. Christ is there in Proverbs as well.

"But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until the full day." (Prov. 4:18)

Coming to Yeshua is coming into greater light on the way to the full day of light.

Yeshua is in Proverbs as the Wisdom of God. And He was with God in the creation of the universe for He is God and with God. Sure.

Right here -

Proverbs 8:22,23 - "Jehovah possessed me n the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. I was set up from eternity, From the beginning, before the earth was."

This One was and is the Wisdom of God Whom God possessed before the creation of the earth. He was set up from eternity.

It does not say that God created His wisdom but that He possessed his Wisdom. This makes sense because if God created Wisdom how would He have had the Wisdom to do so ? So for as long as God has been the Wisdom of God has also been. And through this Wisdom He created the universe.

John writes "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being.

In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it." (JOhn 1:1-5)


In Proverbs the Son of God is the Wisdom of God from eternity.
In the Gospel of John the Word is with God and is God. And then the Word was incarnated to be a man like you and I -

"And the Word became flesh and tabernacle among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality." (John 1:14)

Jesus is the living Word of God.

Jesus is made to those who receive Him, the wisdom of God. God makes Jesus the wisdom of God to us by putting us into Christ -

" But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became wisdom to us from God; both righteousness and sanctification and redemption. That as it is written, 'He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord.' " (1 Cor. 1:30,31)

Righteousness relates to the past. All the believers past sins have been forgiven to justify him as right before God.

Sanctification relates to the ongoing process of Christ spreading His life and nature into every part of the believer's inner being - transforming the soul.

Redemption relates to the future transfiguration of the physical body when Christ will swallow us up in divine life within and without. The glorified body is fully redeemed for eternal life.

In these three matter the Son of God become the Wisdom of God to us who are put into Him and He into us.

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Show me water that takes away your lust.
Show me a washing in water that eliminates your envy and coveting. Do you have some ashes and water that can cure a man's greedy desire for fornication ?
You didn't answer the question. [/quote]

When I quoted to your Isaiah 1:13 and Amos 5:21-25 I told you that in the Old Testament God HATED the vain ceremonial details of the very law He gave IF it was a religious façade only covering inward iniquity and hypocrisy.

And He hasn't change. Whether Judaism or Christianity, hypocrisy covering real righteous living is hateful to God. So we need God's life within and God's life to more and more spread into all the parts of our soul as He promised to do in His own new covenant.

We need the Living Person of God Himself in Yeshua.

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works.

Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves." (John 14:10,11)


Your problem is in believing.
Your problem is in the unwillingness to believe.
You should cry out to God "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief."

(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: I don't mind your educating me on the finer nuances of the Hebrew word. But I don't see how your explanation made that much more difference. So God renounced and made a break with something that He did. Yet His work is perfect and what He does stands forever.
Then, you didn't learn from the Hebrew.
[/quote]

I learned that if you think that you will be able to hold up before Hashem your knowledge of the Hebrew language as justification from the guilt of your sins , you'll never make it. That I learned.

I told you before that you under estimate the distance between the fallen sinner and God. And you underestimate the effectiveness of His justification in Christ to remove that distance.

Neither God's holiness nor His ability to reconcile do you take seriously enough. You come before PERFECT with your boasting about your familiarity with Hebrew language. It will not save you from judgment.

I will come and say "Lord, I cannot even read or write Hebrew or Greek. But I stand before you clothed in the Son of God - my ONLY Justification to be before Your glory, Your righteousness, and Your holiness. God whether You like me or you don't like me You must be faithful to Your word. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one who believes into Him would not perish, but have eternal life. ".

I am really happy that you know Hebrew. I could learn much from you. But I tell you that your Hebrew can be translated into many other languages of the world as can also Greek. And the word of God is clear. It is not only in one place it tells us the truth. It is in many places repeated many times so that we would not mess the truth.

There is only One with Whom God is completely pleased, His Son. If you get into a jumbo jet and sit, it can take you from New York to Jerusalem.

And if you get into the Jumbo Jesus He will take you from the fallen condemned Adam into the Father. Fallen sinners Jew or Gentile need to be in Christ to be brought to God.

"For Christ also has suffered once for sins, the Righteous on behalf of the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God ..." (1 Peter 3:18)

Yes, I sound like I am preaching now. I am announcing to you the good news.


(07-24-2013, 11:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: I can see this. However do not twist the passage either. God brings in the flood because of the grief of His heart and the repentance of His heart.

It's not twisting, it's just that the truth doesn't fit within your paradigm. [/quote]

We were speaking of Genesis 6:5-7 and God repenting or God being grieved to His heart about something He did.

Verse 7 says "for I repent that I have made them."

No, I do not see how your explanation made too much difference. The point I get in this passage is that in giving man free will God potentially causes there to be a situation that could cause Him trouble.

This should be obvious. Man may choose to be under God's government or man may choose NOT to be under God's government. If man refuses then it could be bad. In fact it could decline and get SO bad that God would have to wipe out everything and start over again. And the Noah story is precisely about that.

You can think of "repent" in several different shades of meaning but what difference does it really make ?

My purpose in pointing out the repenting God or the sorry God is not to show some inconsistency in the Bible which says that all that God does is perfect. It is to show that surprising utterances are there as God sets up for us truth by truth, progressively, gradually, the backround of Christ's eternal redemption to come.

In creating a creature as man with free will God does introduce into the universe the potential for Him to have trouble. He has the wisdom to overcome that trouble with those whom He saves, who themselves repent and believe in Him. But He does necessarily allow for a second will to exist beside His own -

b]"And He said, Who told you that you are naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat ? "(Gen. 3:11) [/b]

Man's free will and Satan's usurping rebellion to entice man's will can cause the Governor of the whole universe some difficulty. Otherwise God would have made only robots who cannot but obey His wishes automatically.

It gives Him greater pleasure that man obey from love. It brings Him more glory and enjoyment. The down side is probably that not ALL human beings will choose to repent and be reconciled to God.

In Noah's time the rock bottom of sinning was reached. And God said it repented Him that He had made man upon the earth. Whatever room you imagine you have to adjust the meaning of the Hebrew word which in my English version is "repent" it makes not great difference.

I am going to stop here this morning.
#38
(07-26-2013, 06:40 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote:
(07-26-2013, 06:40 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Show me water that takes away your lust.
Show me a washing in water that eliminates your envy and coveting. Do you have some ashes and water that can cure a man's greedy desire for fornication ?
You didn't answer the question.
[/quote]
The ashes of the red heifer has nothing to do with this question.

Let's get down to the point. If Yeshua was perfect in his observance of the law, he would have kept this law to fulfill the requirements of defilement from the contact with the dead.

Did he fulfill this law. Yes or No?
#39
(07-26-2013, 08:18 AM)Nachshon Wrote: You didn't answer the question.

The ashes of the red heifer has nothing to do with this question.

Let's get down to the point. If Yeshua was perfect in his observance of the law, he would have kept this law to fulfill the requirements of defilement from the contact with the dead.

Did he fulfill this law. Yes or No?

I find in the Gospels no record of Jesus going through this matter. I see no record of Him going through a number of details of the multitude of details specified in the law.

So I cannot tell you that I know that this or that particular ceremony was carried out. We see Him circumcized I think and few other matters.

So I do not have complete confidence to assure you that "Yes, Jesus did that, and that, and that. Yes, I know He performed this and that from Levitcus."

Now as to the question of His being righteous before God totally ? That I can assure you. I know that this was the Father's Beloved Son with Whom He was well pleased. He was that spotless Lamb. He was without sin. He is perfect and perfection.

Now one more point. Above you retorted that I should not speak out of emotion for it accomplishes nothing.

Okay, maybe I sometimes display emotion. But you should know that the first commandment said we should love God with our WHOLE heart, whole soul, whole strength. Am I right Something like this?

So my love for God is not only manifested in my intellect but on occasion in my emotions as well.
#40
(07-26-2013, 10:17 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: I find in the Gospels no record of Jesus going through this matter. I see no record of Him going through a number of details of the multitude of details specified in the law.

So I cannot tell you that I know that this or that particular ceremony was carried out. We see Him circumcized I think and few other matters.

So I do not have complete confidence to assure you that "Yes, Jesus did that, and that, and that. Yes, I know He performed this and that from Levitcus."

Now as to the question of His being righteous before God totally ? That I can assure you. I know that this was the Father's Beloved Son with Whom He was well pleased. He was that spotless Lamb. He was without sin. He is perfect and perfection.
Righteousness would entail keeping the whole law, doesn't it? Then, Yeshua must fulfill the law of cleansing with the heifer. There's no way around this.

(07-26-2013, 10:17 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Now one more point. Above you retorted that I should not speak out of emotion for it accomplishes nothing.

Okay, maybe I sometimes display emotion. But you should know that the first commandment said we should love God with our WHOLE heart, whole soul, whole strength. Am I right Something like this?

So my love for God is not only manifested in my intellect but on occasion in my emotions as well.
The Shema in Deut 6:4 does state the above, but there is a control of both aspects of the heart. That which is bad and good. This is seen in the Hebrew because there is an extra "bet" in the word heart.

I can respect that you have a passion for the search for truth as I try to do. I wish you well. Shabbat Shalom!


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