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Yeshua and the Red Heifer
#1
Yeshua came in contact with the dead at least once (Lazarus, his house, his relatives, his belongings, unclean for seven days) which would require a cleansing ritual with ashes from the red cow, which is a water purification right for sin (Numbers 19:9,11,13-22).

When did he do fulfill this commandment?
#2
(07-17-2013, 11:06 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Yeshua came in contact with the dead at least once (Lazarus, his house, his relatives, his belongings, unclean for seven days) which would require a cleansing ritual with ashes from the red cow, which is a water purification right for sin (Numbers 19:9,11,13-22).

When did he do fulfill this commandment?

"One who touches the dead body of any human being shall be unclean seven days." (Num. 19:11)

Verse 13 also speaks of touching the corpse.
Verse 14 speaks of coming into the tent where a person has died.
Verse 16 is about touching a corpse in a field.

There are 57 verses in John chapter 11 where Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Which verse speaks of Jesus touching him ? Which verses speaks of Jesus entering into a tent where his corpse was ?

I am not saying I know the answer to your question. I am asking about the details of your complaint about touching or being in a tent with the corpse of Lazarus for starters.
#3
(07-18-2013, 06:24 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote:
(07-17-2013, 11:06 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Yeshua came in contact with the dead at least once (Lazarus, his house, his relatives, his belongings, unclean for seven days) which would require a cleansing ritual with ashes from the red cow, which is a water purification right for sin (Numbers 19:9,11,13-22).

When did he do fulfill this commandment?

"One who touches the dead body of any human being shall be unclean seven days." (Num. 19:11)

Verse 13 also speaks of touching the corpse.
Verse 14 speaks of coming into the tent where a person has died.
Verse 16 is about touching a corpse in a field.

There are 57 verses in John chapter 11 where Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Which verse speaks of Jesus touching him ? Which verses speaks of Jesus entering into a tent where his corpse was ?

I am not saying I know the answer to your question. I am asking about the details of your complaint about touching or being in a tent with the corpse of Lazarus for starters.
Fair question. But, please know that I’m not complaining, but asking a serious question. Tumah, or uncleaniness, with respect to death, is passed on through contact with the dead, as you noted, or with contact with the dead’s house (Numbers 19:14), belongings (Numbers 19:18), family or friends that came in contact, anything that comes in contact within the “circle of death” pertaining to the deceased, during the initial seven day period during the purification rites requiring the heifer.

So, the person who has come in contact with death in its various forms, must have the ashes/water of the heifer sprinkled on him on the 3rd and 7th days, and must be immersed in water (Number 19:19).

Yeshua was in contact with Lazarus’s sisters during the seven days after his death (John 11:17-20). Other people and his disciples would have come in contact with Lazarus’ family and house as is the custom of Jews to visit and comfort the mourners. And, these individuals would have come in contact with Yeshua, since we know that the crowds loved to touch him.

This is the issue. Yeshua would require purification with the ashes/water of the heifer, and he would have come in contact with death and sin (Numbers 19:9 “…it is a purification for sin.”).

There are other accounts where Yeshua would have come in contact with death (Mat 8:21-22; Luke 7:22). John 11:2 recounts how Mary physically touched Yeshua previously, so she probably touched Yeshua again during this period of mourning as well.

Oh, I forgot to add Matthew 9:18,23;25; Luke 7:11-14. In these incidents, Yeshua actually touches the dead or their coffin. He would have been ritually impure and required purification for sin by the waters as described above.

I welcome serious responses and not emotional outbursts and rants.
#4
Nachshon, while I contemplate the question I am not sure about some of your references. I will have to pray and seek help from others too.

But while I do I'd ask you your opinion on something in John like this matter.

When the accusers of Jesus turned Him over to Pontius Pilate to be condemned it says that they refrained from entering into Pilate's court so that they would not be defiled for the passover -

"Then they lead Jesus from Caiaphas into the praetorium, and it was early morning. And they themelves did not enter into the praetorium, so that they would not be defiled, but might eat the passover. Pilate therefore went outside to them and said, What accusation do you bring against Him." (John 18:28,29)

Here is man who taught righteousness, healed the sick, expelled demons and raised the dead by the power of God. And here are His enemies conspiring to have Him condemned to death. Which do you think was a greater offence before God - that they entered Pilate's hall and were defiled for Passover or that they were scheming to have this man killed - a man who had both spoken and BEHAVED as the Son of God ?

I think it was more serious a transgression that they falsely accused Jesus.
While I consider your question, I remember that Jesus said that the Pharisees strained out a gnat and swallowed a camel. This means they gave meticulous detail to some ceremonial matters yet so obviously neglected the weightier commands of the Law.

In this we all are warned.
#5
(07-18-2013, 09:34 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Nachshon, while I contemplate the question I am not sure about some of your references. I will have to pray and seek help from others too.

But while I do I'd ask you your opinion on something in John like this matter.

When the accusers of Jesus turned Him over to Pontius Pilate to be condemned it says that they refrained from entering into Pilate's court so that they would not be defiled for the passover -

"Then they lead Jesus from Caiaphas into the praetorium, and it was early morning. And they themelves did not enter into the praetorium, so that they would not be defiled, but might eat the passover. Pilate therefore went outside to them and said, What accusation do you bring against Him." (John 18:28,29)

Here is man who taught righteousness, healed the sick, expelled demons and raised the dead by the power of God. And here are His enemies conspiring to have Him condemned to death. Which do you think was a greater offence before God - that they entered Pilate's hall and were defiled for Passover or that they were scheming to have this man killed - a man who had both spoken and BEHAVED as the Son of God ?

I think it was more serious a transgression that they falsely accused Jesus.
While I consider your question, I remember that Jesus said that the Pharisees strained out a gnat and swallowed a camel. This means they gave meticulous detail to some ceremonial matters yet so obviously neglected the weightier commands of the Law.

In this we all are warned.
FeedmySheep, contemplation is good. I hope you understand that the question I am raising is based on the requirements from Torah, and the NT accounts. I have made none of this up.

Hopefully, you are not accusing me of false accusations because as I've said, I'm recounting events that are based in Torah and the NT.

Given, that, I don't want to veer off of the subject of this thread.
#6
Nachshon Wrote:FeedmySheep, contemplation is good. I hope you understand that the question I am raising is based on the requirements from Torah, and the NT accounts. I have made none of this up.

Hopefully, you are not accusing me of false accusations because as I've said, I'm recounting events that are based in Torah and the NT.

Given, that, I don't want to veer off of the subject of this thread.

I think I can see the bases of your question in the book of Numbers.

If you feel accused I want you to know that we ALL stand accused. We are simply not for God. Jesus alone on this earth was absolute for the will of His Father. We all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. While I will contemplate your question, I do realize that most all of the offerings find their reality is Christ.

Jesus was not only sinless. He was glorious. He was righteous in a splendid and glorious way.

He is that spotless One that all the oxen, goats, doves, bulls, lambs who shed blood pointed to. It is amazing how difficult it is for some people to grasp this. I think it must take the merciful revelation of God to that person.

This is a little off the subject of your question. But not totally so.

You sensed some accusation. Perhaps. But it is the accusation upon ALL mankind - Jew and Gentile. The sinner of old laid his hands on the head of the beast as it was slaughtered. He identified with that slain beast.

We sinners must "lay our hands" on Messiah, so to speak. His being the spotless human Lamb of God died for the justification of all sinners. Your red heifer in reality is Messiah Himself.

Did Jesus perform a ceremonial washing after raising Lazarus ? That's your issue. I don't know. I think maybe not.

But your question is similar to the questions asked of Him about His breaking the Sabbath by healing a man on it or directing His disciples to eat some standing corn.

They asked Him questions about ceremonial matters like this. While He sometimes directed someone He healed to go to the priest to offer the prescribed offering to the priests, He often seemed to transcend some ceremonial requirements.
#7
(07-18-2013, 02:55 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote:
Nachshon Wrote:FeedmySheep, contemplation is good. I hope you understand that the question I am raising is based on the requirements from Torah, and the NT accounts. I have made none of this up.

Hopefully, you are not accusing me of false accusations because as I've said, I'm recounting events that are based in Torah and the NT.

Given, that, I don't want to veer off of the subject of this thread.

I think I can see the bases of your question in the book of Numbers.

If you feel accused I want you to know that we ALL stand accused. We are simply not for God. Jesus alone on this earth was absolute for the will of His Father. We all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. While I will contemplate your question, I do realize that most all of the offerings find their reality is Christ.
Like I said, please stick to the question, and reply to it. Thank you.
#8
(07-18-2013, 02:55 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Jesus was not only sinless. He was glorious. He was righteous in a splendid and glorious way.

Did Jesus perform a ceremonial washing after raising Lazarus ? That's your issue. I don't know. I think maybe not.
Numbers 19:9 "A man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer and put them in a ceremonially clean place outside the camp. They are to be kept by the Israelite community for use in the water of cleansing; it is for purification from sin. The red heifer is for purification of sin for any contact with death and its forms.

Numbers 19:11 "Whoever touches a human corpse will be unclean for seven days. 12 They must purify themselves with the water on the third day and on the seventh day; then they will be clean. But if they do not purify themselves on the third and seventh days, they will not be clean. 13 If they fail to purify themselves after touching a human corpse, they defile the Lord’s tabernacle. They must be cut off from Israel. Because the water of cleansing has not been sprinkled on them, they are unclean; their uncleanness remains on them". If Yeshua didn't perform purification, he is cut off from Israel.

Yeshua needed to be purified from sin based on these Torah passages. That's the crux of the matter.
#9
(07-18-2013, 08:55 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(07-18-2013, 02:55 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Jesus was not only sinless. He was glorious. He was righteous in a splendid and glorious way.

Did Jesus perform a ceremonial washing after raising Lazarus ? That's your issue. I don't know. I think maybe not.
Numbers 19:9 "A man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer and put them in a ceremonially clean place outside the camp. They are to be kept by the Israelite community for use in the water of cleansing; it is for purification from sin. The red heifer is for purification of sin for any contact with death and its forms.

Numbers 19:11 "Whoever touches a human corpse will be unclean for seven days. 12 They must purify themselves with the water on the third day and on the seventh day; then they will be clean. But if they do not purify themselves on the third and seventh days, they will not be clean. 13 If they fail to purify themselves after touching a human corpse, they defile the Lord’s tabernacle. They must be cut off from Israel. Because the water of cleansing has not been sprinkled on them, they are unclean; their uncleanness remains on them". If Yeshua didn't perform purification, he is cut off from Israel.

Yeshua needed to be purified from sin based on these Torah passages. That's the crux of the matter.

Rather the crux of the matter is that Isaiah 53 says that the Suffering Servant was without sin. So why would He need purifying ?

"He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth, But Jehovah was pleased to crush Him, to afflict Him with grief. When He makes Himself an offering for sin ... the righteous One, My Servant, will make the many righteous."

He was crushed for OUR iniquities and not for any of His own - (Isaiah 53:6).

He PURIFIED by offering His sinless own self for all others who come to Him for redemption.
#10
(07-19-2013, 06:25 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote:
(07-18-2013, 08:55 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(07-18-2013, 02:55 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: Jesus was not only sinless. He was glorious. He was righteous in a splendid and glorious way.

Did Jesus perform a ceremonial washing after raising Lazarus ? That's your issue. I don't know. I think maybe not.
Numbers 19:9 "A man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer and put them in a ceremonially clean place outside the camp. They are to be kept by the Israelite community for use in the water of cleansing; it is for purification from sin. The red heifer is for purification of sin for any contact with death and its forms.

Numbers 19:11 "Whoever touches a human corpse will be unclean for seven days. 12 They must purify themselves with the water on the third day and on the seventh day; then they will be clean. But if they do not purify themselves on the third and seventh days, they will not be clean. 13 If they fail to purify themselves after touching a human corpse, they defile the Lord’s tabernacle. They must be cut off from Israel. Because the water of cleansing has not been sprinkled on them, they are unclean; their uncleanness remains on them". If Yeshua didn't perform purification, he is cut off from Israel.

Yeshua needed to be purified from sin based on these Torah passages. That's the crux of the matter.

Rather the crux of the matter is that Isaiah 53 says that the Suffering Servant was without sin. So why would He need purifying ?

"He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth, But Jehovah was pleased to crush Him, to afflict Him with grief. When He makes Himself an offering for sin ... the righteous One, My Servant, will make the many righteous."

He was crushed for OUR iniquities and not for any of His own - (Isaiah 53:6).

He PURIFIED by offering His sinless own self for all others who come to Him for redemption.
You still haven't answered the question of the thread. You're skirting the issue. Please stick to the point. Isaiah 53 mentions nothing about atonement/kippur.

(07-18-2013, 09:34 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: "Then they lead Jesus from Caiaphas into the praetorium, and it was early morning. And they themelves did not enter into the praetorium, so that they would not be defiled, but might eat the passover. Pilate therefore went outside to them and said, What accusation do you bring against Him." (John 18:28,29)
Do you know why the Jews did not enter the praetorium? In the ancient Roman world, the common practice was to have dead relatives buried inside their houses or palaces. This would have defiled any Jew entering according to Numbers 19.

Give this fact, Yeshua would not have been able to complete the ceremony of purification, a part of the law/Torah.


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