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Yeshua and the law of Kings
#1
Deut 17:14-20 stipulates the laws for kings and how they are to reign.
We know Yeshua has not reigned, been married according to most Christian accounts, had children, etc.

Since Yeshua stated in Matthew 22:30 -

Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

How will he fulfill these commandments since there is no marriage in the future kingdom?
#2
Nachshon Wrote:We know Yeshua has not reigned

Do you mean that you personally have not allowed Yeshua to reign ?
Some of us have allowed the Lord Jesus to reign even before that millennial age.

First, what is this confidence you have that you announce "We know Yeshua has not reigned" ?

You are conversing with some people among whom have allowed Yeshua to reign.
Maybe you'll say "Stick with the subject." But there is an inherent assumption here which is false - "We know Yeshua has not reigned."

Maybe you should speak for YOURSELF on that point.

Concerning Matt. 22:30 Jesus was speaking of the ones Reigning. He is not speaking of the ones being reigned OVER. The nations during the Messianic kingdom will still marry and reproduce. The sons of God who co-reign with Christ in their glorified bodies do not marry and reproduce. Neither do they die.

The surrounding nations which come out of the great tribulation and are transferred into that dispensation will still marry and reproduce.

I am not sure if Christ qualifies as a king chosen by the people to reign over them. He was rejected and chosen by God to reign in spite of a national rejection. I'm still thinking on it.

" I will set a king over me like all the nations which surround me; You must set a king over you whom Jehovah your God will choose."

This hardly fits the case of Yeshua who was chosen yet nationally rejected. In fact His death and resurrection into a glorified body made it unnecessary for Him to be concerned with wife in the regular sense. The rejection of the nation puts Him in a resurrection state quite unlike the kings in mind in the Deuteronomy passage.
#3
(07-22-2013, 09:49 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: This hardly fits the case of Yeshua who was chosen yet nationally rejected. In fact His death and resurrection into a glorified body made it unnecessary for Him to be concerned with wife in the regular sense. The rejection of the nation puts Him in a resurrection state quite unlike the kings in mind in the Deuteronomy passage.
David was chosen and reigned. So did every son after him. So, if Yeshua is a son of David, he must oblige by these laws to be perfect in the law. He did say in Matthew 5:17-19 that all must be fulfilled, right?

If Yeshua can't fulfill these laws, then he can't reign and be messiah.
#4
(07-22-2013, 10:31 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(07-22-2013, 09:49 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: This hardly fits the case of Yeshua who was chosen yet nationally rejected. In fact His death and resurrection into a glorified body made it unnecessary for Him to be concerned with wife in the regular sense. The rejection of the nation puts Him in a resurrection state quite unlike the kings in mind in the Deuteronomy passage.
David was chosen and reigned. So did every son after him. So, if Yeshua is a son of David, he must oblige by these laws to be perfect in the law. He did say in Matthew 5:17-19 that all must be fulfilled, right?

If Yeshua can't fulfill these laws, then he can't reign and be messiah.

Nachshon, before I attempt a reply to this post, I want to ask you again. I am curious and don't think I saw you answer before.

Obviously you can pinpoint this or that issue in the New Testament by verse and chapter. You probably have resources that highlight problems for the orthodox Jew concerning Jesus.

But did you ever pick up the New Testament and decide to read it through cover to cover just on its own ? Is everything you know about it only because of skeptical articles directing your attention to problematic portions ?

I can see you pin pointing chapter and verse in the New Testament. But I think you are missing something in the whole message.

The next post I will respond to your comments above.
#5
(07-23-2013, 10:01 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote:
(07-22-2013, 10:31 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(07-22-2013, 09:49 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: This hardly fits the case of Yeshua who was chosen yet nationally rejected. In fact His death and resurrection into a glorified body made it unnecessary for Him to be concerned with wife in the regular sense. The rejection of the nation puts Him in a resurrection state quite unlike the kings in mind in the Deuteronomy passage.
David was chosen and reigned. So did every son after him. So, if Yeshua is a son of David, he must oblige by these laws to be perfect in the law. He did say in Matthew 5:17-19 that all must be fulfilled, right?

If Yeshua can't fulfill these laws, then he can't reign and be messiah.

Nachshon, before I attempt a reply to this post, I want to ask you again. I am curious and don't think I saw you answer before.

Obviously you can pinpoint this or that issue in the New Testament by verse and chapter. You probably have resources that highlight problems for the orthodox Jew concerning Jesus.

But did you ever pick up the New Testament and decide to read it through cover to cover just on its own ? Is everything you know about it only because of skeptical articles directing your attention to problematic portions ?

I can see you pin pointing chapter and verse in the New Testament. But I think you are missing something in the whole message.

The next post I will respond to your comments above.
Actually, Rabbi Singer is a big resource of mine and his website. Also, having had to deal with assimilation in Jewish communities, I took it upon myself to learn some things, just like Rabbi Singer.

I have read the entire NT, studied the philosophical arguments, and can see the discrepancies with the Torah. That being the case, I do try to point out when there is agreement with the Torah (accept the truth no matter who says it or where it comes from), which is the basis for all truth. But as a whole, the NT is unreliable. That's my take on it.
#6
(07-22-2013, 10:31 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(07-22-2013, 09:49 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: This hardly fits the case of Yeshua who was chosen yet nationally rejected. In fact His death and resurrection into a glorified body made it unnecessary for Him to be concerned with wife in the regular sense. The rejection of the nation puts Him in a resurrection state quite unlike the kings in mind in the Deuteronomy passage.
David was chosen and reigned. So did every son after him. So, if Yeshua is a son of David, he must oblige by these laws to be perfect in the law. He did say in Matthew 5:17-19 that all must be fulfilled, right?

If Yeshua can't fulfill these laws, then he can't reign and be messiah.

One of the first similarities between David and Jesus which I noticed was not legal but in the heart. David was a man who so deeply regarded God's authority.

David was hounded, hunted, conspired against by a predecessor insane with envy. David trusted in God to vindicate his kingship. He did not fight for himself against Saul but submitted to him as much as sanely possible without being murdered.

Though David had every right to fight for himself and get the old disposed king off of his back, David maintained an attitude of trusting God to establish him as king as God had promised.

Now we come forward to the Lord Jesus. We come to the astounding testimony He bore which landed Him on His cross. He had been for three years teaching and behaving as He taught - He was the Son of God. And what did they say at His execution:

"And those who were passing by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads ... You who destroy the temple and build it up in three days, save Yourself ! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross!

Likewise also the chief priests with the scribes and elders mocked [Him] and said, He saved others; Himself He cannot save. He is King of Israel; let Him come down now from the cross, and we will believe on Him.

He trusts in God; let Him rescue [Him] now if He wants Him, for He said, I am the Son of God.

And in the same way the robbers who were crucified with Him also reproached Him." (Matt. 27:39-44)


This King is more trusting in the Father than David. This King is absolute for nothing but the will of God. He cared nothing for the self vindication He could do. Not at this time.

I would think that you should notice how much MORE like David this King is than David himself was. Completely leaving His vindication to God to the uttermost and refusing to fight for Himself.

He is too good. He is not only too good for Israel. He is too good for mankind as a whole. He taught us " ... the greatest among you shall be your servant. And he who will exalt himself shall be humbled, and he who will humble himself shall be exalted." (Matt. 23:11,12)

While you consider the legal aspects of the law I think you should consider also the heart of Jesus. David only dimly foreshadows this King. He is more David that David himself. And God set His seal upon Him by raising Him from the dead.

Now let's consider the legal affairs of David. Not every instance did David adhere to the letter of the law. And God seemed not to interfere. There is the account when David ate the showbread which was unlawful for anyone but the priests to eat. He remained faultless.

"And one Sabbath He was going through the grainfields, and His disciples were picking and eating the ears ofgrain, rubbing them in their hands.

And some of the Pharisees said, Why are you doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath ? And Jesus answered them and said,

Have you not even read this that David did when he became hungry, he and those who were with him; How he entered into the house of God, and taking the bread of the Presence, he ate it and gave some to those with him, which is not lawful [for anyone] to eat except the priests alone?

And He said to them, The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." (Luke 6:3-5)


God intentionally made an exception for the hunted legitimate king David in this regulation. And Jesus similarly told His disciples to do something which was not allowed to be done on the Sabbath. Yet He was righteous according to God's final vindication of Him.

They watched Him carefully in order to accuse Him of healing on the Sabbath illegally.

" and the scribes and Pharisees were watching Him closely to see if He would heal on the Sabbath, so that they might find [reason] to accuse Him.

But He knew their reasonings and said to the man who had the withered hand Rise and stand in the midst ... And Jesus said to them, I ask you, Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?

And looking around at all of them, He said to him, Stretch out your hand. And he did, and his hand was restored.

But they were filled with rage and discussed with one another what they might do to Jesus." (Luke 6:7-11)


Are you also filled with rage that Jesus healed on the Sabbath ?
The Father vindicated the Son of Man's command - "Stretch out your hand" and it instantly restored by the power of God.

But did He technically break a Sabbath regulation ? They were enraged that He did.

And Jesus said to the people concerning the religionists.

"Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in Moses' seat; Therefore all that they tell you, do and keep; but do not do according to their works, for they say [things] and do not do [them]." (Matt. 23:1-3)

In this aspect Jesus was not unlike some of the Old Testament prophets. In this aspect of giving heed to the weightier matters of the law He sounded like some of the prophets God sent before. It wasn't entirely new what He was saying.

"WOe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrits! For you give a tenth of the mint and the anise and the cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law - JUSTICE AND MERCY AND FAITHFULNESS. But these you should have done and not neglected the others.

Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but swallow the camel!" (Matt. 23:23-24)
#7
(07-23-2013, 10:55 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote:
(07-22-2013, 10:31 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(07-22-2013, 09:49 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: This hardly fits the case of Yeshua who was chosen yet nationally rejected. In fact His death and resurrection into a glorified body made it unnecessary for Him to be concerned with wife in the regular sense. The rejection of the nation puts Him in a resurrection state quite unlike the kings in mind in the Deuteronomy passage.
David was chosen and reigned. So did every son after him. So, if Yeshua is a son of David, he must oblige by these laws to be perfect in the law. He did say in Matthew 5:17-19 that all must be fulfilled, right?

If Yeshua can't fulfill these laws, then he can't reign and be messiah.
In this aspect Jesus was not unlike some of the Old Testament prophets. In this aspect of giving heed to the weightier matters of the law He sounded like some of the prophets God sent before. It wasn't entirely new what He was saying.

"WOe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrits! For you give a tenth of the mint and the anise and the cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law - JUSTICE AND MERCY AND FAITHFULNESS. But these you should have done and not neglected the others.

Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but swallow the camel!" (Matt. 23:23-24)
I'm sorry, I think you're skirting the issue. Will Yeshua fulfill Deut 17:14-20 and reign as King Messiah in light of his resurrection teaching and be perfect in the law? Yes or no?
#8
(07-24-2013, 09:50 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(07-23-2013, 10:55 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote:
(07-22-2013, 10:31 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(07-22-2013, 09:49 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: This hardly fits the case of Yeshua who was chosen yet nationally rejected. In fact His death and resurrection into a glorified body made it unnecessary for Him to be concerned with wife in the regular sense. The rejection of the nation puts Him in a resurrection state quite unlike the kings in mind in the Deuteronomy passage.
David was chosen and reigned. So did every son after him. So, if Yeshua is a son of David, he must oblige by these laws to be perfect in the law. He did say in Matthew 5:17-19 that all must be fulfilled, right?

If Yeshua can't fulfill these laws, then he can't reign and be messiah.
In this aspect Jesus was not unlike some of the Old Testament prophets. In this aspect of giving heed to the weightier matters of the law He sounded like some of the prophets God sent before. It wasn't entirely new what He was saying.

"WOe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrits! For you give a tenth of the mint and the anise and the cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law - JUSTICE AND MERCY AND FAITHFULNESS. But these you should have done and not neglected the others.

Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but swallow the camel!" (Matt. 23:23-24)
I'm sorry, I think you're skirting the issue. Will Yeshua fulfill Deut 17:14-20 and reign as King Messiah in light of his resurrection teaching and be perfect in the law? Yes or no?

He reigns and will reign and do much better than that. Infinitely better.
#9
(07-27-2013, 03:28 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote:
(07-24-2013, 09:50 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(07-23-2013, 10:55 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote:
(07-22-2013, 10:31 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(07-22-2013, 09:49 PM)Feedmysheep Wrote: This hardly fits the case of Yeshua who was chosen yet nationally rejected. In fact His death and resurrection into a glorified body made it unnecessary for Him to be concerned with wife in the regular sense. The rejection of the nation puts Him in a resurrection state quite unlike the kings in mind in the Deuteronomy passage.
David was chosen and reigned. So did every son after him. So, if Yeshua is a son of David, he must oblige by these laws to be perfect in the law. He did say in Matthew 5:17-19 that all must be fulfilled, right?

If Yeshua can't fulfill these laws, then he can't reign and be messiah.
In this aspect Jesus was not unlike some of the Old Testament prophets. In this aspect of giving heed to the weightier matters of the law He sounded like some of the prophets God sent before. It wasn't entirely new what He was saying.

"WOe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrits! For you give a tenth of the mint and the anise and the cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law - JUSTICE AND MERCY AND FAITHFULNESS. But these you should have done and not neglected the others.

Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but swallow the camel!" (Matt. 23:23-24)
I'm sorry, I think you're skirting the issue. Will Yeshua fulfill Deut 17:14-20 and reign as King Messiah in light of his resurrection teaching and be perfect in the law? Yes or no?

He reigns and will reign and do much better than that. Infinitely better.
It's obvious you didn't answer the question, but are using fluffy words which do not mean much. Will Yeshua marry and have children in contradiction to his resurrection teaching (Mat 22:30), or did he fulfill this during his 1st coming and create additional gods in the godhead (refulfill Isa 7:14)? Or he will never fulfill this commandment?
#10
I'm certainly no Hebrew scholar.. but I just keep reading verses 14-20 over and over again and I am failing to see what your issue is.
Are you speaking to the fact that Jesus didn't have children as based on the last line in verse 20?
My answer to that is that His children are those that follow Him. 1 John 3:10
Are you speaking to the fact that Jesus has no bride to "multiply" as in verse 17?
My answer to that is that His bride are those that follow Him. John 3:29


A question for you:
Do you see David as having fulfilled that "Law of Kings" in Deuteronomy 17? Did he not "multiply wives unto himself"? Do you believe that he "read therein all the days of his life" even the day that he seduced Bathsheba and had Uriah killed?

The law reveals our weaknesses not our strengths.


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