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Dear Jews, Jesus is the Messiah!
#11
Bluefinger2009 (henceforth “B2009”) Wrote:Christianity is known all over the world, and with it the God of Israel.

Isaiah 52 and Micah 4 tell us that when the Servant is exalted it will shock the kings of the nations. If the Nazarene was the Servant, where would the shock be, seeing as Christianity is so popular? But when Israel is exalted, that will surely strike dumb the kings of nations. Imagine the looks on the faces of Ban Ki Moon, Ahmadinejad, Abbas, etc., when Israel is exalted in the End of Days.

B2009 Wrote:While the Jews fight for just a heritage, Christians are out fighting iniquity, immorality…

Christians are the only ones who do such things?

B2009 Wrote:After seeing that, are you really insisting that God is not with the Christians?

G-D tells the Jews that if we do not properly do our part, our enemies will rise over us (e.g. Deut 28:36, 43). Since we are clearly not doing enough, we are not surprised that Christianity and Islam are as popular as they are. G-D is with them in order to provoke us to pull ourselves up to return to G-D.
#12
B2009 Wrote:I'd rather the Messiah that rules 2,000 years and comes by the faithfulness of God rather than a messiah that tarries 2,000 years and comes only by the faithfulness of a traditionally stubborn people.

I would rather the real Messiah arrive and rule for eternity (thus making the last 2000 years seem like a passing dream) than put my trust in a false Messiah who has not brought about any Messianic elements promised by the Jewish prophets. Quite the contrary to what the prophets teach, your messiah has been the largest source of persecution, bloodshed, and exile directed at Israel since the destruction of the Temple.

B2009 Wrote:I don't think Jesus failed. I think He is still ruling as we speak. If not, who rules from David's throne?

No one rules from David’s throne now, just as Hosea 3:4-5 predicted. We pray that soon that will change. Not with someone we imagine to be ruling but cannot verify, but with someone who is actually and obviously sitting on David’s throne.

B2009 Wrote:And I find it hard to understand how you believe that the God that created the heavens and the earth and all that is in it can't take the form of a man and fulfill on Israel's behalf what the Jews could not, and still can't, do by their own strength.

Very simple. When G-D appeared in fire or in cloud, was there a major theological problem posed to the Jews? No, because G-D never says He is not fire or cloud (not that He really is either, as He is invisible, but He has appeared in these forms, so to speak). By contrast, three times G-D says He is not a man (Numbers 23:19, I Samuel 15:29, Hosea 11:9), so He would not appear as a man because He knows the Jews wouldn’t listen to someone who claimed to be G-D, since He is not a man. Further, G-D tells us many times that we can fulfill the Torah’s Laws and they are not too difficult (Deut 30:10-14), and nowhere says that someone else will come along and do it for us.
#13
(10-03-2013, 08:59 PM)benyosef Wrote: I would rather the real Messiah arrive and rule for eternity (thus making the last 2000 years seem like a passing dream) than put my trust in a false Messiah who has not brought about any Messianic elements promised by the Jewish prophets. Quite the contrary to what the prophets teach, your messiah has been the largest source of persecution, bloodshed, and exile directed at Israel since the destruction of the Temple.

I think you underplay the impact of the curse of the Torah. The problem is that God exiled the Jews for the wickedness and injustice of the Pharisees and religious leaders toward their neighbors. And your people carry on their traditions and teachings. So, you share in their generation and in their curse. If you want to lift the curse, then you need to turn to Jesus. Or how much more blessed do the other nations have to become before it drives your people to utter jealousy? It's stubborness.

“Know, therefore, that the Lord your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stubborn people." (Deuteronomy 9:6 ESV)

Or as Stephen once said:

“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you." (Acts 7:51 ESV)

Quote:No one rules from David’s throne now, just as Hosea 3:4-5 predicted. We pray that soon that will change. Not with someone we imagine to be ruling but cannot verify, but with someone who is actually and obviously sitting on David’s throne.

Hosea 3:4-5 was a prophecy for the Babylonian Exile. It had nothing to do with the post-70 CE era. We know this because the office of king and high priest became united in Joshua the High Priest after the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem and carried on until the days of Hyrcanus.
#14
benyosef Wrote:Very simple. When G-D appeared in fire or in cloud, was there a major theological problem posed to the Jews? No, because G-D never says He is not fire or cloud (not that He really is either, as He is invisible, but He has appeared in these forms, so to speak). By contrast, three times G-D says He is not a man (Numbers 23:19, II Samuel 15:29, Hosea 11:9), so He would not appear as a man because He knows the Jews wouldn’t listen to someone who claimed to be G-D, since He is not a man. Further, G-D tells us many times that we can fulfill the Torah’s Laws and they are not too difficult (Deut 30:10-14), and nowhere says that someone else will come along and do it for us.

You said that God is not fire or cloud, though he became a fire or a cloud to the Israelites. Yet, you pick out phrases where God contrasts Himself to mankind as a defense that God cannot take the form of a man. Those said that God is not a man that He should lie. Or that God is not a man that He should be overtaken in wrath. He is also not a fire that He should go out or a cloud that He cannot be clear.

Also, when three men visited Abraham, it was at once recognized that God was among them. Christians have maintained that God did on Israel's (and mankind's) behalf what they could not do themselves.

Also, let's recount history.  Israel broke God's commands.  God sent prophets to warn them that wrath was coming if they did not repent.  They killed the prophets.  So God exiled them, destroyed their temple, and burned their city with fire.  Then God forgave them and let them return to rebuild their temple and city after only 70 years.  Then they broke God's commands again.  God sent them the prophet John the Baptist to warn them of coming wrath (Matthew 3), but they killed him.  Then Jesus came, warning of the wrath to come and called followers to Himself.  The Jews killed Him.  Jesus resurrected, ascended to the throne in heaven, and sent His followers as prophets to preach repentance to the Jews.  But the Jews killed them too.  So God destroyed the temple, burned the city, and exiled your people.  While that happened, His followers arose to prominence, seeking believers across the world.  Something that your people should have been doing from the beginning.
#15
(10-03-2013, 08:58 PM)benyosef Wrote: Isaiah 52 and Micah 4 tell us that when the Servant is exalted it will shock the kings of the nations. If the Nazarene was the Servant, where would the shock be, seeing as Christianity is so popular?

It helps to keep Isaiah 52 and Micah 4 in context. Both regard post-Babylonian exile Jews, not post-Roman exile Jews. Furthermore, it was a shock to kings for over three centuries. Or should kings stay in perpetual shock that the one they murdered came back and conquered them?
Quote: But when Israel is exalted, that will surely strike dumb the kings of nations. Imagine the looks on the faces of Ban Ki Moon, Ahmadinejad, Abbas, etc., when Israel is exalted in the End of Days.

Israel exalted? If you want Israel to be exalted, then you'll have to discard the teachings of the Pharisees and religious leaders of the first century. Their teachings couldn't save Israel then. So how will they save Israel now?

benyosef Wrote:Christians are the only ones who do such things?

I'm not talking about other religions. I'm talking about Jews and Christians. God had chosen Abraham to bring righteousness and healing to the nations. All the Jews did afterward was try and exalt themselves above the nations and rule over them. The Christians on the other hand, sought to bring righteousness to those nations. Those nations received their message and many repented. But the Jews did not.

Quote:G-D tells the Jews that if we do not properly do our part, our enemies will rise over us (e.g. Deut 28:36, 43). Since we are clearly not doing enough, we are not surprised that Christianity and Islam are as popular as they are. G-D is with them in order to provoke us to pull ourselves up to return to G-D.

Doing your part? It sounds absolutely absurd to me that getting circumcised, eating such a restricted diet, celebrating certain festivals, and all your lengthy traditions is somehow going to rid this world of wickedness, spread righteousness, and bring knowledge of God throughout the whole earth. How is Judaism going to heal the nations? You're going to have to do more than strictly follow 613 commandments. And all this talk about the exaltation of Israel sounds elitist to me.

God chose Abraham to bring righteousness to the world. Not elitism. So, my logic tells me to stick with one who can save rather than a join a people who claim to be their own savior.
#16
Bluefinger2009, I understand why you think following the rabbis and rejecting your leader is the cause of our current exile, but G-D tells us that exile and punishment occur for rejecting the rabbis, treating G-D with casualness, and accepting and following false gods. You cite Deuteronomy 9:6 to show we’re stubborn, but seem to gloss over the fact that chapters 9 and 10 say that despite how much we provoked G-D, He still forgave us for our rebelliousness and led us to the Land, and upheld His promise to be our G-D and us His Nation.

I can understand how you find it unusual that one nation’s adherence to Torah will help people who have never even heard of Jews, but let’s use your example: G-D tells Avraham that the world will benefit through or because of him. Yet we don’t see Avraham traveling around the world, other than Canaan, Egypt, Charan, and a few other places, so what did he do? Followed G-D’s laws and statutes (Genesis 26:5), just like any Jew should. If it worked for Avraham, it works for his children.

This is even more interesting when we consider the role of G-D’s commandments. How many times does G-D tell us we need to believe in or accept the Messiah when he arrives? Now, how many times does G-D tell us to keep the commandments? Off the top of my head I can think of three books that talk about the beauty and importance of keeping the Torah (Deuteronomy 30, Psalm 119, Ecclesiastes 12), and no verse which tells us to believe in the Messiah. Wouldn't it make sense that if G-D’s plan for mankind’s redemption and vindication was the message Christianity tells us it is, that this would be clearly articulated at least once in G-D’s written words? That at one point G-D would say something like, “Israel, although I said you could keep the Torah, and I punished you repeatedly for failing to keep the Torah, in truth, it is impossible to keep it. Your only hope is to believe in the Messiah when he arrives, for he will fulfill the Torah for you, and thus you will be saved.” Not only is this message never found, but whenever the subject of commandments comes up, we are always told to repent, perform the commandments, and only then will we be ok.

As I've shown you before, the rise of other nations doesn't contradict G-D’s promises of Israel’s ultimate exaltation. The Romans were pretty mighty, as were the Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, and even Baal had a certain appeal, attracting more Jews than Moishe Rosen could ever dream of, yet they are all gone, and the Jews are still here, just like G-D promised.
#17
B2009 Wrote:Hosea 3:4-5 was a prophecy for the Babylonian Exile. It had nothing to do with the post-70 CE era.

Hosea says after “many days” the Jews will again have a Davidic king. This is clearly not speaking of the Babylonian exile because no king from David reigned during the 2nd Temple.

B2009 Wrote:You said that God is not fire or cloud, though he became a fire or a cloud to the Israelites. Yet, you pick out phrases where God contrasts Himself to mankind as a defense that God cannot take the form of a man.

I think you missed what I said. G-D doesn’t say “I am not fire” or “I am not cloud,” so when He appeared in fire or cloud, no theological problem arose. At least three times G-D says He is not a man, so if He were to appear as a man, He would contradict Himself and present the Jews with a theological quandary. If Numbers 23 and I Samuel 15 were just telling us G-D doesn’t lie, it could have simply said so. Why add “G-D is not a man?” Further, Hosea 11:9 simply says, “For I am G-D and not a man.” No qualifiers and no contrast to humanly acts.

Consider this: if the Messiah was supposed to be divine, why would Isaiah 11:2-3 tell us he will fear G-D? Does G-D fear anything?

B2009 Wrote:when three men visited Abraham, it was at once recognized that God was among them. Christians have maintained that God did on Israel's (and mankind's) behalf what they could not do themselves.

G-D was not among the three men: “the men…went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the L-RD” (Genesis 18:22).

B2009 Wrote:Israel broke God's commands. God sent prophets…

Nice little recap, but it’s not as clear as you present it. Perhaps the 2nd Temple was destroyed because so many Jews had turned to Christianity?

B2009 Wrote:It helps to keep Isaiah 52 and Micah 4 in context. Both regard post-Babylonian exile Jews, not post-Roman exile Jews. Furthermore, it was a shock to kings for over three centuries. Or should kings stay in perpetual shock that the one they murdered came back and conquered them?

Micah 4 begins with “In the Last Days,” and relates details which are yet to occur. Isaiah 52 says that the defiled and uncircumcised will no longer enter Jerusalem, which also hasn’t happened yet. And you think these occurred centuries ago?

What do you mean “it was a shock to kings for over three centuries?” Which kings were shocked about Jesus? Which kings even knew about him, let alone exclaimed, “Who would have believed our report?”
#18
B2009 Wrote:I'm talking about Jews and Christians. God had chosen Abraham to bring righteousness and healing to the nations. All the Jews did afterward was try and exalt themselves above the nations and rule over them. The Christians on the other hand, sought to bring righteousness to those nations…

I’m talking about Jews and Christians, too. Much of Christian history is about followers of your master doing good deeds—as long as the recipients accept their messiah as lord and savior. Many Jewish children found refuge from the Nazi horror in Christian homes and orphanages—but no adults were rescued. After the war, many Jewish survivors returned to retrieve their children, but were met with resistance from these “noble” Christian caregivers who didn’t want to return the children. Bringing righteousness? It’s nothing but a modern-day “cross-or-the-sword” tactic. I have never heard of Orthodox Jews performing kindness to non-Jews and expecting anything in return, because Jews know that one need not be Jewish to be considered righteous.

Before the modern state of Israel, in which countries were the Jews in charge of any aspect of government? Even since 1948 Israel has never been an expansionist state, so I have no idea on what you base your claims of Israel trying to "exalt themselves above the nations and rule over them."

B2009 Wrote:It sounds absolutely absurd to me that getting circumcised, eating such a restricted diet,…is somehow going to rid this world of wickedness, spread righteousness, and bring knowledge of God throughout the whole earth.

On the surface, I hear you. However, we both agree that these “rules” you mention were explicit commands that G-D expects of His people, and we both agree that chapters like Deuteronomy 28 tell us that things will not be pleasant for the Jews when they deviate from these laws, so what is the problem here?

B2009 Wrote:How is Judaism going to heal the nations? You're going to have to do more than strictly follow 613 commandments.

With our knowledge (Isaiah 53:11). Where do you get the idea that the commands of G-D are inadequate on their own?

b2009 Wrote:And all this talk about the exaltation of Israel sounds elitist to me.

If I were to make this up on my own, then you’d have a claim. But when Daniel 7:27 speaks of a “holy, supreme nation,” and when chapters like Isaiah 60 speak of the elevation of Israel, then against whom is your complaint?

By your logic, we could argue that the Church are the elitists because they claim to be the “new Israel,” the beneficiaries of these promises of exaltation you seem to take issue with, as well as condemning to Hell anyone who doesn’t believe as they believe. Sounds elitist, does it not?
#19
B2009 Wrote:my logic tells me to stick with one who can save rather than a join a people who claim to be their own savior.

You speak of your master as if it is empirically verifiable that he can save, and in the same breath say that keeping commandments is worth nothing. Let me ask you: between keeping commandments and believing in the Messiah (or Jesus or Joseph Smith or Mohammad or Krishna or whoever else), which path does G-D say leads to good things? I’ll give you a hint: it’s found in Deuteronomy 30.
#20
(11-21-2013, 11:33 PM)benyosef Wrote:
B2009 Wrote:my logic tells me to stick with one who can save rather than a join a people who claim to be their own savior.

You speak of your master as if it is empirically verifiable that he can save, and in the same breath say that keeping commandments is worth nothing. Let me ask you: between keeping commandments and believing in the Messiah (or Jesus or Joseph Smith or Mohammad or Krishna or whoever else), which path does G-D say leads to good things? I’ll give you a hint: it’s found in Deuteronomy 30.

The conditions for restoration and blessing were annulled by the word the Lord given to Jeremiah. Even Moses said the people would fail.
Jer:31:32: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Read Luke 6 the magnified Law commandments. Yeshua's word's are Wonderful.


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