Bible Options Bible Study Software
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Dear Jews, Jesus is the Messiah!
#1
I'm not Jewish, but I often think about today's Jews and why they should believe.

Here's the way I see it:

1. Jesus is a Jew and I worship him.
2. The apostles are all Jews and they are the most popular heroes in western civilization (along with OT prophets).
3. The Christian bible includes the Old Testament. (And, they are both
historically accurate.)

We've seen how God has blessed the West with prosperity and peace beyond our imagination. There are many basic reasons to believe that Jesus is the Lord.

Of course, there is no "proof" of anything in the world. We must pray to God for help.
#2
Hi there, tplarkin7.

The reason Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah has nothing to do with his Jewishness or his disciples or anything of that sort. The primary reason is based on what the Torah tells us about the Messiah and the Messianic Age.

The Torah is very clear on what will happen when the Messiah reigns. We are told there will be peace on Earth (Isaiah 2:4, 11:6-8), worldwide knowledge of G-D (Isaiah 11:9, Jeremiah 31:34), the Temple standing in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 37:27-28, chapters 40-48), resurrection of the dead (Daniel 12:2, Isaiah 26:19), and the return of the Jewish exiles to Israel (Jeremiah 23:7-8, Isaiah 27:13).

Scattered among these descriptions are a few verses describing a single individual, a righteous judge who will not be G-D, but will fear G-D (Isaiah 11:1-4), and who is likened to David (Hosea 3:5, Ezekiel 37:24).

Since none of these elements have occurred, there is no question the promised Jewish Messiah has not yet arrived.

A few things stand out. First, not only were these elements not completed in J's life, the exact opposite of them occurred during and after his life: the Temple was destroyed, the Jews were scattered, many were killed, and many religions have sprung up preaching all forms of G-Dlessness.

Second, all of these descriptions of the End of Days and the Messiah himself (who is actually never called "the Messiah" in the Torah) occur many times and very clearly. To illustrate this point, I provided but two sources for the End of Days descriptions, and had I more room, I could have shown more. Search throughout the Torah, and you'll not find anywhere a clear source for a second coming or a messianic return to complete what he didn't do the first time.

Third, there is no mention anywhere that we will need to believe in or accept the Messiah when he arrives, because when he reigns, it will be plainly obvious to all.

These are but a few reasons.
#3
Thanks BenYosef!

When seeking the truth, faith must come before worldly proof. So, we must use caution when determining fulfillment of prophesy. There is an order to receiving God's grace which begins with heavenly humility. Sometimes men "put the cart before the horse" and seek worldly proofs for heavenly revelations before understanding the will of God.

There is nothing absolute in this world except God's revelation. A NASA scientist will say a prayer when sending a probe to Mars.

My point is that the whole western world worships a Jew who claims to be the Son of David. Nations that abide in truth will prosper. Look at those nations that don't prosper and you will see a lack of faith, or pagan worship. The more pagan a nation, the more poverty.

Regarding your comment about the Messiah being "plainly obvious", when did any prophet have an easy time of convincing Israel of God's revelations? There were always naysayers, even after miracles happened before their eyes.
#4
This isn't directly related to our topic, but since you mentioned "Messiah", I thought this would lighten our discussion.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/11/ten...odds-with/
#5
My pleasure, Tplarkin7.

The fact that the whole Western world worships whatever or whomever does not lend credence to what they believe. The whole Islamic world worships a false god and a loser they call a prophet, yet they have oil and a lot of money.

I agree that sometimes what we believe flies in the face of what science says, yet we believers in the G-D of Israel know that contradictions between Torah and science only come from not understanding Torah or science. So, too, to a certain extent, we need to understand prophecy to know when it was or will be fulfilled.

This is why the End of Days prophecies are important. The prophets who spoke of this utopian epoch used such clear guidelines to describe this time so we’d know when they would be fulfilled. If world peace is a description of the Messianic Age, we can deduce that any war means we have not yet reached this age. If G-D tells us no one will have to tell another to “know the Lord,” we can deduce that if missionaries are preaching to Jews, the Messiah has not yet arrived.

You are correct that many times the true prophets met resistance when delivering their messages. It is possible that Isaiah received flak for saying that in the Messianic Age knowledge of G-D will cover the world like water covers the sea bed (11:9). However, the Torah is not telling us that the Messiah will perform these miracles and thus you will know who he is; the Torah is telling us that these elements will be part of the state of the world during his reign. That’s why the Torah never says we need to believe in the Messiah or accept him as the Messiah, because just as no one can deny that water covers the sea bed, so too will no one be able to deny that the Messianic Age has arrived.

P.S. That was amusing. Thanks for sharing.
#6
(08-06-2013, 08:42 AM)benyosef Wrote: Hi there, tplarkin7.

The reason Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah has nothing to do with his Jewishness or his disciples or anything of that sort. The primary reason is based on what the Torah tells us about the Messiah and the Messianic Age.

The Torah is very clear on what will happen when the Messiah reigns. We are told there will be peace on Earth (Isaiah 2:4, 11:6-8), worldwide knowledge of G-D (Isaiah 11:9, Jeremiah 31:34), the Temple standing in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 37:27-28, chapters 40-48), resurrection of the dead (Daniel 12:2, Isaiah 26:19), and the return of the Jewish exiles to Israel (Jeremiah 23:7-8, Isaiah 27:13).

Scattered among these descriptions are a few verses describing a single individual, a righteous judge who will not be G-D, but will fear G-D (Isaiah 11:1-4), and who is likened to David (Hosea 3:5, Ezekiel 37:24).

Since none of these elements have occurred, there is no question the promised Jewish Messiah has not yet arrived.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that the things that were promised to the Messiah have happened to Christians rather than the Jews? In nations predominantly Christian, peace is rather abundant. Because of Christians, The Lord has been preached all over the world. I want to emphasize that it was because of CHRISTIANS and not because of Orthodox Jews. Christians have preached all 2,000 years of our existence while Jews have had a history of keeping to themselves. Whereas I do not doubt that Jews are caring and activists about the rest of the world now, I cannot say it was so when they had their own kingdom. As we discussed before, I have argued that Jerusalem is in heaven and that the body of Christ is the temple. The dead is considered resurrected when they get baptized into Jesus' resurrection while they are alive. And considering the exiles returning home: Christians have always preached repentance, a key to returning to the promises of God. As long as you follow the old rabbinical system, you will remain outside the promises, regardless of whether you are standing in the geographical promised land or not. And if you think the land part of it counts, who do you think helped the Jews get back to their land? The Christians.

Those who eat the bread and drink the wine in remembrance of Jesus receive the promises of God. It is the new circumcision. Just as Jewish males got circumcised on the eighth day to partake in Abraham, so do Christians share in the breaking of Christ's body and the spilling of his blood so that we may partake in the resurrection that Jesus experienced on the eighth day.
#7
(08-06-2013, 08:42 AM)benyosef Wrote: A few things stand out. First, not only were these elements not completed in J's life, the exact opposite of them occurred during and after his life: the Temple was destroyed, the Jews were scattered, many were killed, and many religions have sprung up preaching all forms of G-Dlessness.

As I have said before, I find it odd that, if they were correct, the Jews should suffer 2,000 years of exile while those they accuse of heresy and apostasy should receive all the things originally promised to the Jews, even their very land. To this day, the Temple Mount is covered by an Islamic sanctuary to show that their land still belongs to Gentiles. And if the Jews forcefully take it back, do they not undermine the chastisement that God gave them and bring upon themselves even worse calamity?

Quote:Second, all of these descriptions of the End of Days and the Messiah himself (who is actually never called "the Messiah" in the Torah) occur many times and very clearly. To illustrate this point, I provided but two sources for the End of Days descriptions, and had I more room, I could have shown more. Search throughout the Torah, and you'll not find anywhere a clear source for a second coming or a messianic return to complete what he didn't do the first time.

I think history speaks volumes on the necessity of a second coming. Second, scholasticism has revealed that a) the Torah was not likely written by Moses b) the Torah was more than likely written by exiles in Babylon and in Egypt and c) the inspired writings were likely subject to manipulation throughout history, even to the point that pseudonymous writers wrote things in other peoples' names in effort to get their readers to respond in their favor, Ezekiel and Daniel being among them.

Quote:Third, there is no mention anywhere that we will need to believe in or accept the Messiah when he arrives, because when he reigns, it will be plainly obvious to all.

These are but a few reasons.

Even three generations after the destruction of the temple in 70 CE, you'd think the messiah the Jews have anticipated would have established a reign. Why was the curse extended?

Christians maintain that Christ rules from heaven and has made His rule obvious to all, even blessing His disciples with the promises of Abraham.
#8
Bluefinger2009 Wrote:Doesn't it strike you as odd that the things that were promised to the Messiah have happened to Christians rather than the Jews? In nations predominantly Christian, peace is rather abundant...

Not at all, for none of those things promised regarding the Messianic Age have happened. You are claiming that these things have happened in Christian territories, yet G-D’s promises are not of a select group experiencing these phenomena, but the whole world. G-D says in those days nation will not lift up sword against nation and implements of war will be converted into implements of agriculture (Isaiah 2:4), yet the U.S. has soldiers in armed combat in Afghanistan and are debating war against Syria. G-D says no one will have to tell his neighbor to know the L-RD (Jeremiah 31:34), yet Christian missionaries and Hare Krishnas are still abundant. G-D says there will be a house of prayer on His mountain where peoples will bring offerings (Isaiah 56:7), yet there are no offerings offered on the Temple Mount, which is currently polluted by two mosques. G-D spoke of exiles returning to Israel’s physical borders (Isaiah 11:12, 43:6), not of spiritual exiles being brought in to the messiah, yet there are as many Jews outside Israel as inside. As good as things may be going for some people, it is but a shimmer of what G-D promises will happen in the End of Days.

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:I think history speaks volumes on the necessity of a second coming.

I think you are looking at the world and realizing we need the Messiah, and declaring that only his second coming will fix it. Yet the Torah never says the Messiah will come again. We are both waiting for the real deal, only you think he needs two chances to accomplish what G-D says will be done in one.

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:…scholasticism has revealed that a) the Torah was not likely written by Moses b) the Torah was more than likely written by exiles in Babylon and in Egypt…

There is no basis for these claims. “Scholars” simply do not like the thought that any text has the Divine foresight with which the Torah is infused.

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:Even three generations after the destruction of the temple in 70 CE, you'd think the messiah the Jews have anticipated would have established a reign. Why was the curse extended?

Because we have not yet done what we need to do.

Bluefinger2009 Wrote:Christians maintain that Christ rules from heaven and has made His rule obvious to all, even blessing His disciples with the promises of Abraham.

How convenient to make Messianic claims that cannot be verified. Those elements which can be verified, like peace on Earth and universal knowledge of G-D, Christians reinterpret to mean vague promises of peace in one’s heart and knowing the Christian master. Why not read the promises as they are? Because they would point to J’s failed attempt at establishing the Messianic Age.
#9
Christianity is known all over the world, and with it the God of Israel. While the Jews fight for just a heritage, Christians are out fighting iniquity, immorality, godlessness, hunger, abortion, debt, and much more. Not only for their own families but for those that can't help themselves. Even those who haven't got things worked out are still moving forward in faith. All this while the Jews fight to maintain an identity. All this without a holy city on earth to call our own. After seeing that, are you really insisting that God is not with the Christians? Christians have always maintained that Christ is on the throne in heaven, in New Jerusalem, lest the Davidic covenant comes to naught.

We are indeed waiting for the same thing. I'd rather the Messiah that rules 2,000 years and comes by the faithfulness of God rather than a messiah that tarries 2,000 years and comes only by the faithfulness of a traditionally stubborn people.

When you really read the Torah as a literary piece, you can see repetitive themes in several different stories. Adam and Eve being cast out of the garden and sent east for disobeying God's command. The Jews were cast out of Jerusalem and exiled east to Babylon. Noah was surrounded by wickedness but spared from destruction during God's wrath. Same for Lot. Same for the remnant of Judah when Babylon came to destroy the city. The Jews had become so wicked that, if God did not destroy Jerusalem, not one righteous person would have been saved. That is what your Law and Prophets say, not me.
#10
The same God that punished Israel called the remnant of Jacob out of Babylon and gave them their land again out of His great mercy. And when the Romans occupied Jerusalem to execute God's judgment again on the nation for what Josephus described as great wickedness, God sent His Only Begotten Son to call a remnant out of your people. They fled Judea and brought the teachings of Jesus to the God-fearing Gentiles who listened attentively in the synagogues years prior to that, being told by your rabbis that they were excluded from God's promises based soley on the fact that they were not circumcised. The disciples pointed them to a rabbi whose own flesh was mutilated so that all that partook of his body and blood through sacrament could enter the promises through Him. I believe that the circumcision pointed to Jesus all along. These uncircumcised Gentiles took the teachings of Jesus to heart and did many acts of righteousness and justice while the Jews went into hiding for fear of persecution. And while the Jews cowered in fear of forgetting their heritage, the Gentile Christians willingly gave their lives as a testament for their love of God, even enduring the worst of tortures. Now, please be honest: Who pleased the Father more?

I don't think Jesus failed. I think He is still ruling as we speak. If not, who rules from David's throne? Nobody even knows who else would qualify now. The author of the Gospel according to Matthew shows Jesus saying on several occasions that the promises of God were meant for more than just the Jews and was intended to extend all over the world, not just the land given to the tribes of Israel.

If I'm not mistaken, the Israelites of old didn't want God as their king. They wanted a human. Evidently it was always God's intent to rule His people. So He became a man and satisfied both conditions.

And I find it hard to understand how you believe that the God that created the heavens and the earth and all that is in it can't take the form of a man and fulfill on Israel's behalf what the Jews could not, and still can't, do by their own strength.


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)