Poll: Do these questions change your mind about Yeshua being divine?
No, he is divine.
Yes, he cannot be a god.
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Yeshua died as a divine god-man?
#1
Recently someone posted that Yeshua was divine until his death and died a god-man. On the surface this sounds very much like Greek or Roman mythology. There are many contradictions in this statement when one examines it not only in scripture, but with respect to logic and basic reasoning.

1) How can a god die? A true god cannot die (Jeremiah 10:10, Hosea 1:10).

2) Hashem is Eternal (Genesis 21:23, Deut 33:27, Psalm 90:2).

3) Given that Yeshua did not have the Holy Spirit in him before his ministry (Matthew 3:13-16), and he died without the Father with him (Matthew 27:46), how can it be argued that Yeshua is a god-man when the Holy Spirit or the Father were not with him all of the time?

4) Even if the Holy Spirit leaves Yeshua, just a second or less before his death or at any time during his life, he is not a god-man through his entire ordeal of death. So, basically he is not G-d.

5) If Yeshua needed to die as a god-man because only by the Spirit or the Father was Yeshua able to fulfill the law/Torah, then Yeshua accomplished nothing as a man, and G-d would have to die to pay for our sins (contradiction). Of course we know that Hashem is the living G-d. The NT says Yeshua was tempted in all ways (Hebrews 4:15), but this wouldn’t be true if he only accomplished the law/Torah through the Spirit or Father because G-d cannot be tempted (James 1:13). If Yeshua could fulfill Torah as a man alone, then there is no need to have the Spirit or the Father with him, and no need for the virgin birth (Isa 7:14; 9:6(5)).

6) Hashem is not sinful, so to say that G-d took on sin as a god-man, is contradictory to the Torah and Tanakh (Deut 32:4; 2 Chr 19:7; Jer 2:5; Zeph 3:5).

7) G-d is not a man, nor does he take on a physical form or blood ever (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9; Daniel 2:11; Jer 16:20; Isa 40:25, 46:5).

8) G-d does not change His mind, and when He speaks or His prophets speak, His word stands forever. This means He will never be a man or take on a physical form (Numbers 23:19; Mal 3:6; Isa 55:11; Zech 7:12). So, when one prophet or Hashem says something, all must agree. No contradictions from Genesis to the end of Tanakh.

9) G-d is Pure and Holy, so to say that He took on sin is not only repulsive, but contradictory to the Tanakh (Job 4:17; Prov 30:5; Josh 24:19; 1 Sam 2:2; Psalm 71:22, 99:9; Isa 54:5).

10) G-d is perfect and just and would not hold a person accountable for someone else’s sins. So, Yeshua could not die for the sins of others either as a man or a god-man (Deut 24:16, 32:4; 2 Chr 25:4; Ezek 18:20).

11) If Yeshua could not die as a god-man, then by deduction he could not be born as a god-man either.

I welcome serious responses and hope that emotional responses and personal attacks will be kept to zero. Please pick 1 to 2 of the points above to discuss at a time. Thanks.
#2
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)
#3
(08-10-2013, 07:17 PM)Houly Wrote: For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)
If you read "Unity of G-d", from post #81 onward, you'll see that Yeshua is not the father, but the name in Isa 9:6(5) refers to "My Eternal Father". Even Yeshua's name, "G-d is Salvation", shows that "I am Salvation" is not his name. This is a contradiction. If he was, then there is no need for one of them.
#4
7) G-d is not a man, nor does he take on a physical form or blood ever (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9; Daniel 2:11; Jer 16:20; Isa 40:25, 46:5).

I don't believe Jesus is a HaShem-man/hashem-man. Jesus traces back on his Mothers side to Adam and Eve and on his Fathers side to the Holy Ghost. Anyone who says Jesus is therefore a demigod would have to say the same about Eve as God made her from the rib of Adam which would make her half man half god.
#5
(08-13-2013, 10:07 AM)MessianicJew Wrote: 7) G-d is not a man, nor does he take on a physical form or blood ever (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9; Daniel 2:11; Jer 16:20; Isa 40:25, 46:5).

I don't believe Jesus is a HaShem-man/hashem-man. Jesus traces back on his Mothers side to Adam and Eve and on his Fathers side to the Holy Ghost. Anyone who says Jesus is therefore a demigod would have to say the same about Eve as God made her from the rib of Adam which would make her half man half god.
I can agree with you with respect to descent from the Mother, on the father side seems contradictory.

How does J-sus trace back to the Holy Ghost? He would have to have the genetic make-up of a physical father to be human.
#6
(08-09-2013, 12:26 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Recently someone posted that Yeshua was divine until his death and died a god-man. On the surface this sounds very much like Greek or Roman mythology. There are many contradictions in this statement when one examines it not only in scripture, but with respect to logic and basic reasoning.

1) How can a god die? A true god cannot die (Jeremiah 10:10, Hosea 1:10).
Yeshua answer to those who accused Him of being G-D the Father, instead of Hashems Son, quoted from his forefather;
Psalm 82:6 I say ; you are gods and children of the Most High

How can a man be god? Perhaps you should ask King David!
#7
(08-14-2013, 07:23 AM)Azriel Wrote:
(08-09-2013, 12:26 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Recently someone posted that Yeshua was divine until his death and died a god-man. On the surface this sounds very much like Greek or Roman mythology. There are many contradictions in this statement when one examines it not only in scripture, but with respect to logic and basic reasoning.

1) How can a god die? A true god cannot die (Jeremiah 10:10, Hosea 1:10).
Yeshua answer to those who accused Him of being G-D the Father, instead of Hashems Son, quoted from his forefather;
Psalm 82:6 I say ; you are gods and children of the Most High

How can a man be god? Perhaps you should ask King David!
Perhaps you should read the verse that follows from King David in Psalm 82:7 -

Psalm 82:7 But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler. Yeshua is a mortal.
#8
First of all, I recommend you all take off your 'mortal' glasses if you are to understand this issue. Of course, we ARE mortal, flawed, and unable to begin to really comprehend the tiniest bit about God/the godhead. But we'll try.

Jesus is not a god-man, nor a demi-god, He is, rather, ALL God and ALL Man. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the godhead, bodily. God was manifest in the flesh. How else can we explain it?

As for Him not possessing the Holy Ghost before His baptism, that's silly-He is, and was, God-he doesn't posess the Spirit, he IS the Spirit. They are one. What occurred in His baptism was a physical manifestaion of the entire godhead-the voice of the Father, the body of the Son and the presence of the Spirit-the Spirit lit ON Him in bodily form as a dove, the Spirit did NOT enter Him, as he was already the fullness of the Spirit.

How does it all work? What are the mechanics? Who knows? Well, God does, so we'll just have to ask Him at some point. But today, our minds can't comprehend the ways of God.
#9
In the writings of the Apostles John and Paul, Jesus is depicted as being both a man and God. John said that ‘the Word was God’ and then ‘the Word became flesh (a man)’. Paul said that Jesus previously existed in the form of God and was later found in the form of a man. Paul also said that ‘all the fullness of Deity’ dwelled in Jesus. The actual mechanism that brought this about is not clearly explained in the NT but there can be no doubt that Jesus is considered to be both a man and God by these writers.

As to God dying, that is an impossibility, but, you say, Jesus died by crucifixion, if Jesus was God how then could He die? Good point, but, since Jesus was a man as well as God the answer is that the man, Jesus, died but the God who dwelled in Him did not die. James, in his letter, says that the body without the spirit is dead. John said that God is Spirit. Therefore when the body of Jesus died the Spirit that indwelled Him continued to live even as our spirits will live on after our bodies die until the resurrection.
#10
(08-14-2013, 02:07 PM)ukulelemike Wrote: First of all, I recommend you all take off your 'mortal' glasses if you are to understand this issue. Of course, we ARE mortal, flawed, and unable to begin to really comprehend the tiniest bit about God/the godhead. But we'll try.

Jesus is not a god-man, nor a demi-god, He is, rather, ALL God and ALL Man. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the godhead, bodily. God was manifest in the flesh. How else can we explain it?

As for Him not possessing the Holy Ghost before His baptism, that's silly-He is, and was, God-he doesn't posess the Spirit, he IS the Spirit. They are one. What occurred in His baptism was a physical manifestaion of the entire godhead-the voice of the Father, the body of the Son and the presence of the Spirit-the Spirit lit ON Him in bodily form as a dove, the Spirit did NOT enter Him, as he was already the fullness of the Spirit.

How does it all work? What are the mechanics? Who knows? Well, God does, so we'll just have to ask Him at some point. But today, our minds can't comprehend the ways of God.
Maybe you should put your glasses back on? Please reply to one of the points in the initial post and reply to it. Your opinions without any verses to back them up are not useful.

(08-14-2013, 02:07 PM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: In the writings of the Apostles John and Paul, Jesus is depicted as being both a man and God. John said that ‘the Word was God’ and then ‘the Word became flesh (a man)’. Paul said that Jesus previously existed in the form of God and was later found in the form of a man. Paul also said that ‘all the fullness of Deity’ dwelled in Jesus. The actual mechanism that brought this about is not clearly explained in the NT but there can be no doubt that Jesus is considered to be both a man and God by these writers.

As to God dying, that is an impossibility, but, you say, Jesus died by crucifixion, if Jesus was God how then could He die? Good point, but, since Jesus was a man as well as God the answer is that the man, Jesus, died but the God who dwelled in Him did not die. James, in his letter, says that the body without the spirit is dead. John said that God is Spirit. Therefore when the body of Jesus died the Spirit that indwelled Him continued to live even as our spirits will live on after our bodies die until the resurrection.
Then you have a contradiction because he was not truly a god-man if the Holy Spirit leaves him before his death. Please reply to one of the points in the original post. Thanks.


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