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Confused
#1
I am new to this forum and this is my first post. Anyway, I'm a gentile Christian and love the Jews.

I have always been confused as to how the Jews in whole missed Jesus as their Messiah based on Daniel 9:26, which says that the Jewish Temple would be destroyed AFTER Messiah was revealed and executed. Daniel wrote this over 500 years before Jesus was born. We know that the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, and thus, we know conclusively from Daniel 9:26 that the Messiah had to come before then.

So, can anyone explain what I'm missing here????

thanks in advance for any insight into this question!
#2
(09-10-2013, 08:29 AM)Tricia73 Wrote: I am new to this forum and this is my first post. Anyway, I'm a gentile Christian and love the Jews.

I have always been confused as to how the Jews in whole missed Jesus as their Messiah based on Daniel 9:26, which says that the Jewish Temple would be destroyed AFTER Messiah was revealed and executed. Daniel wrote this over 500 years before Jesus was born. We know that the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, and thus, we know conclusively from Daniel 9:26 that the Messiah had to come before then.

So, can anyone explain what I'm missing here????

thanks in advance for any insight into this question!

Shalom and howdy, Tricia73!

Thanks for participating in the Jews for Jesus Forums. I'm sure you will get some interesting responses to your question.

While you're in our web site, I encourage you to explore some other sections as well as the Forums. In "About Us" and "Answers," for example, you'll read about what we believe and why. In "Events," you can see if a special Jews for Jesus presentation will be coming to a congregation near you. Through "Contact Us," you can get in touch with any of our main staff folks, perhaps at the branch nearest to you.

Thanks again, and God bless you,
Moderator MAlan
#3
I just wanted to add to my post that there have been several Rabbinical Confirmations of Daniel 9:26 being Messianic:
Yalkut, Vol II, 32b, p.79 Nazir edition: Messianic, prior to the Temple being destroyed.
Also, Midrash Berishit, p. 243 Warsaw edition, re: Yakov Prasch - Messiah to exit prior to 33 A.D.

History shows the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. and that Jesus was executed prior to 33 A.D.

Any comments to show this is not correct?
#4
(10-18-2013, 07:37 AM)Tricia73 Wrote: I just wanted to add to my post that there have been several Rabbinical Confirmations of Daniel 9:26 being Messianic:
Yalkut, Vol II, 32b, p.79 Nazir edition: Messianic, prior to the Temple being destroyed.
Also, Midrash Berishit, p. 243 Warsaw edition, re: Yakov Prasch - Messiah to exit prior to 33 A.D.

History shows the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. and that Jesus was executed prior to 33 A.D.

Any comments to show this is not correct?

Bs'd

Yes. Daniel 9 says: "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary and the end of thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease"

So, the messiah is going to be cut of after the seven weeks and the 62 weeks, that is in the 70th week, which according to the Christians should come out around the year 33.

However, it also says that in that same week the Temple would be destroyed. So that should happen in the same 7 year period.

However, the crucifixion and the destruction of the Temple are about 40 year apart, so there is something wrong there.
#5
The Messiah is cut off after the 62 sevens, and the Temple and the city are destroyed, but then in the midst of the 70th seven there is the abomination in the sanctuary of the Temple. The only way that I can see that working would be if there is a pause after the 62 sevens are completed, and the 70th seven happens much later. Do you have a better suggestion?
#6
(01-19-2014, 05:12 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: The Messiah is cut off after the 62 sevens, and the Temple and the city are destroyed, but then in the midst of the 70th seven there is the abomination in the sanctuary of the Temple. The only way that I can see that working would be if there is a pause after the 62 sevens are completed, and the 70th seven happens much later. Do you have a better suggestion?

Bs'd

The stopping of the sacrifices is supposed to happen in the 70th week: "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of THE WEEK he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering;"

Saying the 70th week didn't happen is impossible, because here it says that in the middle of THE WEEK, that is the 70th week, the sacrifices would be stopped.
We know that the sacrifces are stoped, therefore we know that the 70th week did happen.

According to Christian theology, JC with his death, made the sacrificial system stop. He died around 30, so that was the 70th week.
Of course that doesn't fit with the destruction of the Temple which should also happen in the 70th week, so Christianity has a problem.

Once you start putting pauses in the prophecy, it is like saying: "I can't get my account to stick, and therefore I'm chopping up the prophecy."

Once you start putting in pauses, you might put them as well everywhere you want.

Here is an explanation, without pauses, totally fitting the prophecy:
#7
The prophecy ends with the destruction of Jerusalem and the sanctuary, this is the Temple. This destruction happened in 70 CE. The whole prophecy covers 70 prophetic weeks, which stand for 70 x 7 is 490 prophetic days, which are 490 years. The prophecy ends in 70 CE, so it starts in 70 minus 490 is 420 BCE. This prophecy covers the 70 years of the Babylonian exile and the 420 years that the second Temple stood. According to Jewish tradition, the first Temple was destroyed in the year 3338 from creation, this is 423 BCE.

The Hebrew text says: "from the outgoing of the word restore and to built Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks shall the street be built again and the wall, even in troubled times." The 7 weeks and the 62 weeks are not connected in the text. It makes no sense to connect them, because when the Bible wants to give a time period of 69 weeks, why should it write then 7 weeks and 62 weeks, instead of 69 weeks? Therefore the Revised Standard Version says: "from the going forth of the word to restore and built Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again, with squares and moat, …." The RSV has it right. Just like the RSV is correct in Isaiah 7:14; 'young woman' instead of 'virgin'.

The King James in itself gives an reasonable literal translation of these verses as far as the time frames are concerned, except for the colon, the two dots on top of each other, right after the words 'three score and two weeks:' This colon is not to be found in the original text of Daniel. Read now the KJV text without this colon: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to built Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks the street shall be built again and the wall, even in troublous times." Here you see that without that colon inserted by the translators the KJV says basically the same as the RSV. Now you might understand why there is a big "King James only" movement. When you read the Bible in an accurate translation, Christianity already starts to fall apart.

And also "The Message" translates this correct: "Here is what you must understand: From the time the word goes out to rebuild Jerusalem until the coming of the Anointed Leader, there will be seven sevens. The rebuilding will take sixty-two sevens, including building streets and digging a moat. Those will be rough times."

And also the English Standard Version translates this correct: "Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time."
#8
"from the going forth of the word to restore and built Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks." So seven prophetic weeks after the outgoing of the word, this is 49 years, a messiah has to come already. What is the outgoing of the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem? The first one who spoke about the Jewish people returning from exile and rebuilding Jerusalem was the prophet Jeremiah, who prophesized this in the beginning of the Babylonian exile. It was his prophecies which Daniel was studying when he got the vision under discussion, see the beginning of Daniel 9. So from the outgoing of that word, until messiah the prince, would be seven weeks.

Who was the messiah? In order to understand this we first have to understand what is a messiah. Messiah comes from the Hebrew word 'meshiach' which means 'anointed one' It was the custom to anoint kings with oil before they came to power. There were already many anointed kings in Jewish history. Read for instance I Samuel 9:27 to10:1; Here Saul is anointed by Samuel the prophet. And thereby he became a messiah, an anointed one, See Samuel 11:13 up to 12:3: Here in verse 3 king Saul is called G.ds anointed, in the Hebrew 'meshiach'. So also king Saul was a messiah. Look in I Samuel 16:12-13, here the prophet Samuel anoints David, the Hebrew verb for anointing is 'mashach', and he becomes an anointed one, as we can read in II Samuel 23:1; "David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed (in the Hebrew 'meshiach') of the G.d of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said; …"

I Kings 1:39; "And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed (Hebrew verb 'mashach') Solomon. And they blew the trumpet, and all the people said; G.d save king Solomon." Also Solomon was an anointed one, or messiah: II Chronicles 6:42, here king Solomon prays: "O Lord turn not away the face of thine anointed, …" In the Hebrew: 'meshiach'.

So now we know what is a messiah: An anointed king. And now we can start to figure out who is the messiah from Daniel 9:25

For one thing; we know now who could not have been the messiah from Daniel 9: Jesus. He never was anointed as king by a priest and/or prophet, and he never was a king, in other words: He never was a messiah. Therefore he is disqualified to be the messiah of Daniel 9.
#9
Look in Ezra 1:1, there it says that King Cyrus of Persia gave the order to rebuild the Temple. Now look at Isaiah 45:1; "Thus saith the Lord to His anointed, to Cyrus, ..." We see here that G.d calls the non-Jewish king Cyrus 'His anointed'. This is another cover up of the people who made the King James translation. Both in Isaiah 45:1 and in Daniel 9:25 the Hebrew word 'meshiach' is used, and in Daniel it is translated as 'Messiah', and in Isaiah it is translated as 'the anointed'. The RSV is also here better, it consequentially translates it all with 'anointed one', also in Daniel 9:25.

King Cyrus, whom G.d calls His anointed (His messiah), ordered the rebuilding of Jerusalem, 52 years after the destruction of the first Temple and the exile of the Jewish people. The 52 years stand for 7 prophetic weeks plus three years.

So the anointed one spoken about in Daniel 9:25 is king Cyrus.

But after the commandment of king Cyrus the enemies of the Jewish people obstructed the rebuilding of the Temple. See Ezra 4. About 20 years later, in the year 3408 from creation, 353 BCE, under the reign of king Darius, the rebuilding of the Temple was completed: Ezra 4:24; "Then ceased the work of the house of G.d which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius, king of Persia." These are the 70 years of the Babylonian exile.
#10
The seven weeks start in the year 3338 after creation, 423 BCE, with the destruction of the first Temple and the exile of the Jewish people. They end in 3390 after creation, 377 BCE, with king Cyrus coming into power and ordering the rebuilding of Jerusalem. They are followed by the 62 weeks, which stand for 434 years, and that brings up to 3824 after creation, 63 CE. There is now one week left, who brings us up to 3831 after creation, 70 CE.


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