Bible Options Bible Study Software
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Yeshua, the virgin birth, and Isaiah 7:14
#31
(01-18-2014, 08:55 AM)Eliyahu Wrote: [In Is 7:14 is NOT written "betulah", but "almah", which means "young woman".

In every Hebrew texts Isaiah uses "almah", and never "betulah".

"Almah" simply means "young woman", and nothing more. Translating that with "virgin" is simply wrong.

So like I said: One of the foundations of the Christian religion, the virgin birth, is based upon a mistranslated text which is ripped out of context and does NOT speak about the messiah.
The Jewish Septuagint used in the 2nd. Temple period in it's appropriate translation ,and translated by Jewish sages to Greek the wording is Alma as verified from later writings used , and the Greek Septuagint was written centuries before Yeshua's birth. Check your facts. I believe the true wording is Alma, but Matthew read the Greek Septuagint correctly.
Alma could define Alma as a young woman who kept herself in chastity ; a virgin to obey Torah before, and up to her marriage, and she would definitely be Torah observant seeing she did give birth to Immanuel.

There is no mistranslation of the Greek Septuagint. Either Alma or virgin could be used to define the young woman.7:14 could not be the sons of Isaiah, seeing the Alma of Immanuel would not have been considered young after giving birth already to a son, though instead the names of Isaiah's sons speculate, and point to a remnant of Israel suggested in the first prophesy of the author. By using the word Alma, to muself, is a much better interpretation of the wording to lay upon Isaiah 7:14 to satisfy both prophesies.
Shalom
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme;
quote Mark Twain-
#32
(01-18-2014, 10:25 AM)Azriel Wrote:
(01-18-2014, 08:55 AM)Eliyahu Wrote: [In Is 7:14 is NOT written "betulah", but "almah", which means "young woman".

In every Hebrew texts Isaiah uses "almah", and never "betulah".

"Almah" simply means "young woman", and nothing more. Translating that with "virgin" is simply wrong.

So like I said: One of the foundations of the Christian religion, the virgin birth, is based upon a mistranslated text which is ripped out of context and does NOT speak about the messiah.
The Jewish Septuagint used in the 2nd. Temple period in it's appropriate translation ,and translated by Jewish sages to Greek the wording is Alma as verified from later writings used , and the Greek Septuagint was written centuries before Yeshua's birth. Check your facts. I believe the true wording is Alma, but Matthew read the Greek Septuagint correctly.

Bs'd

Well, in that case Matthew read a wrong translation correctly, and went wrong because of it.

Fact of the matter is, of the seven times that "almah" appears in the Tanach, the LXX translates it 4 times as "young woman", one time as "youth", and only two times as "virgin", which is probably because of Christian editing:

Here are a few excerpts from the online Catholic Encyclopedia, here to be found:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/ from the entry "Septuagint" which show the reliability of the LXX:

The Christians had recourse to it constantly in their controversies with the Jews, who soon recognized its imperfections, and finally rejected it in favour of the Hebrew text or of more literal translations (Aquila, Theodotion).

On account of its diffusion alone the hellenizing Jews and early Christians, copies of the Septuagint were multiplied; and as might be expected, many changes, deliberate as well as involuntary, crept in.

The Septuagint Version, while giving exactly as to the form and substance the true sense of the Sacred Books, differs nevertheless considerably from our present Hebrew text.

Again, we must not think that we have at present the Greek text exactly as it was written by the translators; the frequent transcriptions during the early centuries, as well as the corrections and editions of Origen, Lucian, and Hesychius impaired the purity of the text: voluntarily or involuntarily the copyists allowed many textual corruptions, transpositions, additions, and omissions to creep into the primitive text of the Septuagint.

So the Catholics openly admit they corrupted the LXX.

.
.
.


Quote:Alma could define Alma as a young woman who kept herself in chastity ; a virgin to obey Torah before, and up to her marriage, and she would definitely be Torah observant seeing she did give birth to Immanuel.

Bs'd

The only correct definitions of "almah" are "girl" or "young woman".

"Almah" says absolutely nothing about her state of virginity, her chastity, her Torah observance, or her being married or not.

Also giving birth to a child with the name of God in its name does not mean that the father or mother has to be Torah observant.

The evil king Achaz had Hizkia (which means: my strength is God) as son.

Therefore translating "almah" with "virgin" is simply wrong.

Quote:There is no mistranslation of the Greek Septuagint. Either Alma or virgin could be used to define the young woman.

You cannot translate "almah" with "virgin", because you don't know whether she was a virgin or not.

It is like translating the word "animal" with "cow". It is wrong. An animal can be a cow, but it can also be a dog. Evenso "almah": It can be a virgin, but it can also be a non-virgin, so translating it as "virgin" is wrong.

Quote:7:14 could not be the sons of Isaiah, seeing the Alma of Immanuel would not have been considered young after giving birth already to a son,

Do you think that a girl who gives birth when she is 12 or 13 is not young anymore?

In those days girls married young, and had children on a young age.

And the girl is called "almah" while she is giving birth, so here we see that A: Young women can give birth, and B: She was most likely married.

The vers says that the young woman IS pregnant is she IS GIVING BIRTH, it is all present tense.
#33
(01-18-2014, 10:34 PM)Eliyahu Wrote: The vers says that the young woman IS pregnant is she IS GIVING BIRTH, it is all present tense.

Bs'd

Christian translations grudgingly admit that Isaiah 7:14 is in the present tense, and some give it partially or totally in the correct tense:

Common English Bible "Therefore, the Lord will give you a sign. The young woman is pregnant and is about to give birth to a son, and she will name him Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Contemporary English Version "But the Lord will still give you proof. A virgin is pregnant; she will have a son and will name him Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Easy-to-Read Version "The young woman is pregnant and will give birth to a son. She will name him Immanuel"
Partially correct in the tenses.

Good News Translation "Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman[a] who is pregnant will have a son and will name him ‘Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Lexham English Bible "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look! the virgin is with child and she is about to give birth to a son, and she shall call his name ‘God with us.’"
Partially correct in the tenses.

New Revised Standard Version " Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel"
Partially correct in the tenses.

Young's Literal Translation "Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, "
Fully correct in the tenses.
#34
(01-18-2014, 10:34 PM)Eliyahu Wrote: Do you think that a girl who gives birth when she is 12 or 13 is not young anymore?

In those days girls married young, and had children on a young age.

And the girl is called "almah" while she is giving birth, so here we see that A: Young women can give birth, and B: She was most likely married.

The vers says that the young woman IS pregnant is she IS GIVING BIRTH, it is all present tense.
Your interpretation doesn't sit well with the original prophesy of Isaiah 7:14 meaning a remnant of Israel were infused and perfectly cleansed by Spirit of YHVH to carry on Immanuel; G-D with us. Your interpretation doesn't bear witness of the New Remnant of Israel; a child is born in the essence, or purity of Hashem

Historically, within 65 years the Northern Kingdom of Israel would be taken captive and Syria would be destroyed by Assyria (2 Kings 15:29; 16:9). It took place just as Hashem said it would.

There is a beautiful play on words in Isaiah 7 that reinforces his message. "Yahweh is salvation," or "Salvation of the LORD." Shear–jashub Isaiahs son means, "a remnant shall return." Isaiahs son doesn't say a word. He just accompanies his father to the end of the conduit at the Fuller's Field. The name says it all, not in litteral context, but metaphorically . Isaiah prophesies to King Ahaz Only "a remnant shall return" if you do not take Yahweh at His word and believe Him for your salvation. Let Yahweh be your salvation and a remnant will return.

G-D's message to Ahaz and his royal cabinet is you have nothing to fear, therefore trust in the LORD. Take care, and be calm, have no fear because these two pieces of sticks have already burned out and are just a kindeling of smoke. Syria and Israel are nothing more than two burned out sticks and there is not enough life left in them to flame up again. They are just a trickle of smoke, like burned out stumps. They are literally "fire–stirrers." They are powerless.

God told Ahaz to choose a sign as evidence that the message is true. Make it as difficult as you like. "Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; make it deep as Sheol or high as heaven" (v. 11). Ask for a miracle, Ahaz. It will be a pledge of divine certainty. It will prove the Word of God. The king hasn't openly denied the God of his father David at this time. He is even granted the liberty of penetrating as deeply as he wished into the providence of YHVH. Ahaz, ask Him! What will it be? Remember that G-D is the One who is graciously giving Ahaz the opportunity to ask for anything! What would you have asked for? How would you have responded to the invitation?

Ahaz would not ask, "I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!" (v. 12).

His response is evidence of pious unbelief. The king knows that if he did choose a sign and the LORD demonstrated Himself he would be obligated to believe and obey Him. Ahaz did not want to be accountable to Hashem. Even in our day, YHVH has revealed Himself with undeniable signs and testimonies and still men do not believe because they will not. "I will not ask, nor will I test the Lord," is a mask for stubborn unbelief. YHVH has again sent Immanuel through Yeshua, yet again as Israel in the past you will not believe. Must be hereditary!

When G-D proposes a sign, it is not a test. It is an opportunity and privilege to obey, and when we obey we experience G-D.

Therefore, since Ahaz refused to ask for a sign, YHVH went ahead and gave him one. The sign of Hashems purity within a remnant; Immanuel Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel [v. 14].

Almah is the Hebrew word here and it signifies a marriageable young lady of unblemished character. A woman with such a reputation would be classified as a virgin. The best translation for almah is "virgin" with the alternate reading "young woman" or "maiden" in the margin. She is a young woman or maiden with the reputation of being a virgin. She didn't have to blush when the subject came up. She had kept herself pure. Both the usage and context support our translating "virgin" in this passage. In the context of God's message to Ahaz we are led to expect something very unusual. It would not be unusual for a maiden to conceive. However, for a virgin to conceive would fulfill the necessary meaning of the sign in the context of chapter seven. This sign would be a tremendous encouragement to the faith of the remnant of Israel. It would also bring judgment and condemnation to the unfaithful in David's household. Thus, judgment and salvation are evident in the promised sign.

The Hebrew word for virgin, bethulah, signifying a young maiden living in seclusion in her parent's house and still a long way from matrimony. However, almah would fit our context better meaning a marriageable young lady of unblemished character or reputation. It is true she is a young woman or maiden, but that is not the comprehensive understanding of the word. She is a young woman of marriageable age who has never known a man sexually.

You misinterpret the chapter, by your devoted enthusiasm to nullify Yeshua.If you have a problem with the "virgin" conceiving and bearing a child that should be nothing in comparison to the thought of Immanuel––G-D with us in the flesh. That is the greatest feat. How else could the "Word become flesh and dwell among us" than by means of a virgin becoming pregnant and bearing a son? G-D in the flesh means "G-D with us." The child to be born will be called Immanuel; therefore, the translation "virgin" is demanded in the sentence. It is nothing short of a miracle, and that is exactly where the problem lies with those who want to reject "virgin", or young woman to be married, it is the remnant of YHVH, not just one man, it is Hashem; Israel the bride; and Israel the son born in the purity of YHVH. in Isaiah 7:14. If you do not want to believe in miracles then you will have a problem with this sign to Ahaz. Almah has a much more broader context of the true message.

God sent Gabriel to Mary and said, "Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him, Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:31-33).

Just as you acknowledged [thankyou because most Judaic anti missionaries will not admit this ; the second temple period was a time of corruptness, the priests were bought and paid , and the people cried out for YHVH to bring forth the prophesy of Malachi ; silent for 400 years before.

Mary said; "How can this be, since I am a Almah ; in obedience to Torah ;still waiting to be wed!," she demanded (Luke 1:34). There is no question about the Greek word she used. The word for "virgin" always means a marriageable young woman who had preserved the purity of her body. She kept herself sexually pure.

If the child were illegitimate it could not be a sign, just as in the days of Isaiah. The whole context of the Bible; Old and new rules it out. If the birth was out of the ordinary, and unusual because she was a virgin then it is of such a magnitude that G-D has come to be with His people and deal with their sins. There is only one person in history of whom it can be said that He was worthy to be called Imanuel, God with His people, and that is Yahoshua; Hayah I am the Lord G-D ; Hayah ;Your forgiveness.

The very presence of this child, born of Mary,in the bloodline of David in Bethlehem can not be applied to anyone else. Jesus the the Son of the Alma and the Mighty G-D.

"And the angel answered and said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of YHVH. . . For nothing will be impossible with Hashem"(Genesis 18:14) (Luke 1:35, 37).

Just as Isaac carried the wood of his sacrifice upon Mt. Moriah, so would Yeshua carry the wooden cross to the same place; Lamb of G-D that Immanuel may live with His people; Israel. The verse of Isaiah 7:14 holds much more meaning than one woman , or one man, but it contains the Promise between G-D and His beloved Abraham who by faith believed, not knowing where YHVH would lead Him, only believing YHVH would never forsake Him, or desert him,, and the that Promise; The lamb of YHVH sealing that promise gave birth to a Nation above all nations , and above all men; By Promise, not works else Israel would cease to exist, but by Loving Grace did He give His Own sacrifice; His Son. [Genesis 22:8]

Do not give heed to the words of your generation, but renew you faith in the blood of the Lamb; It's Spiritual blood may cleanse you; The Love of our Most Pure G-D; YHVH G-D of all Heaven and earth.
Israel is like the bud of a flower; to only be fed by the light of the sun, and Heavens rain upon it's purity; to open into the Flower Hashem made it to be. One day you will understand, and believe!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
History doesn't repeat itself but it sure does rhyme; quote Mark Twain

https://www.thetrumpet.com/article/11138...nd?preview
#35
Interestingly enough when the Septuagint was written by the 72 elders of Israel (six from each tribe) the writers specifically chose the Greek word "parthenos," for virgin. This clearly demonstrates the common Jewish understanding of this passage at that time. There is no doubt that Jewish leaders looked at this passage as a messianic passage with the expectation of some type of supernatural birth.

The Septuagint translation of the Torah was done between 285 and 244 B.C.E. The Septuagint is the oldest Greek translation of the Bible...the legend contained in the apocryphal letter of Aristeas, according to which 72 elders of Israel, six from each tribe, translated the LAW [Torah] into Greek in Alexandria, during the reign of Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285-244 B.C.E.)...The designation Septuagint was EXTENDED to the rest of the Bible and non-canonical books that were translated to Greek during the following two centuries."(1)

Since this translation was completed in pre-Christian Alexandria more than 100 years before Jesus was even born, the position that Christian scholars have intentionally misinterpreted this word holds no merit. The Septuagint was not attempting to support a "Christian" interpretation of Isaiah 7:14 or any other verse.

Rashi: In his comment on The Song of Solomon 1:3, Rashi frankly explains that "alamoth" the plural of "almah" means "betuloth"-"virgins."(1)

http://jewishroots.net/library/prophecy/...almah.html
#36
(01-19-2014, 08:19 AM)Azriel Wrote: Your interpretation

Bs'd

I don't give an interpretation, I just tell you what is written there.

By the way, how do you post almost 10,000 characters? This board doesn't let me do more than 3000, very irritating.

Quote: doesn't sit well with the original prophesy of Isaiah 7:14 meaning a remnant of Israel were infused and perfectly cleansed by Spirit of YHVH to carry on Immanuel; G-D with us.

It is undoubtedly my shortsightedness, but I don't see anywhere in isaiah 7 that "a remnant of Israel were infused and perfectly cleansed by Spirit of YHVH to carry on Immanuel; G-D with us."

Honestly, I have the idea you are seeing things that don't exist.

Can you point out to me where I can find these things?

Quote: Your interpretation doesn't bear witness of the New Remnant of Israel; a child is born in the essence, or purity of Hashem

But nowhere in Isaiah does it say that a child is being born in the purity of Hashem. I think again that you are seeing things that don't exist.

Quote:YHVH has again sent Immanuel through Yeshua, yet again as Israel in the past you will not believe. Must be hereditary!

That is where our viewpoints differ. I don't believe anybody is sent through JC then JC himself.

I don't believe he was the messiah, because he didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.

I don't believe he was/is God, because only Y-H-W-H is God.

Quote:The sign of Hashems purity within a remnant; Immanuel Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel [v. 14].

Wrong. Is says: "The YOUNG WOMAN IS pregnant and she IS GIVING BIRTH to a son"

[/quote]Almah is the Hebrew word here and it signifies a marriageable young lady of unblemished character.[/quote]

From where do you get all these weird and wrong ideas?

"Almah" signifies "young women", and nothing more. It says nothing about her character, it says nothing about her virginity, nothing about her reputation, (she can very well be a promiscuous woman or an adulteres), it just says she is a young woman.

Here in Isaiah, the young woman was most likely married, because she was pregnant and in the process of giving birth. So she was definitely not a virgin.

Quote: A woman with such a reputation would be classified as a virgin. The best translation for almah is "virgin" with the alternate reading "young woman" or "maiden" in the margin.

Then you can show me undoubtedly a dictionary that has "virgin" in the entry "almah".

Show me please.

It doesn't exist.

Bs'd



Quote: Both the usage and context support our translating "virgin" in this passage.

Of course not. She is pregnant and giving birth. How can she be a virgin??

Quote: It would not be unusual for a maiden to conceive.

No, it would not.

Quote: However, for a virgin to conceive would fulfill the necessary meaning of the sign in the context of chapter seven. This sign would be a tremendous encouragement to the faith of the remnant of Israel. It would also bring judgment and condemnation to the unfaithful in David's household. Thus, judgment and salvation are evident in the promised sign.

A virgin giving birth is not a sign. Because: How would anybody know that the pregnant woman is a virgin?

How can they check that? They can not.

Therefore a virgin birth is NOT a sign.

Therefore, we are NOT dealing here with a virgin birth as a sign.

Quote:The Hebrew word for virgin, bethulah, signifying a young maiden living in seclusion in her parent's house and still a long way from matrimony.

A betulah is a virgin. A women who didn't have relations with a man. That's all that "betulah" means.

The rest of your explanation; 'young maiden living in seclusion in her parent's house and still a long way from matrimony' is nothing more than your imagination, not supported by any facts.

Don't make the mistake to think that your fantasies are reality.

Quote: If the child were illegitimate it could not be a sign, just as in the days of Isaiah.

The child wasn't the sign. The fact that before the child would grow up the countries of the two kings that were threatening Achaz would be deserted, that was the sign.

A virgin birth is not and cannot be a sign.
#37
(01-19-2014, 11:18 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: Interestingly enough when the Septuagint was written by the 72 elders of Israel (six from each tribe) the writers specifically chose the Greek word "parthenos," for virgin. This clearly demonstrates the common Jewish understanding of this passage at that time. There is no doubt that Jewish leaders looked at this passage as a messianic passage with the expectation of some type of supernatural birth.

The Septuagint translation of the Torah was done between 285 and 244 B.C.E. The Septuagint is the oldest Greek translation of the Bible...the legend contained in the apocryphal letter of Aristeas, according to which 72 elders of Israel, six from each tribe, translated the LAW [Torah] into Greek in Alexandria, during the reign of Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285-244 B.C.E.)...The designation Septuagint was EXTENDED to the rest of the Bible and non-canonical books that were translated to Greek during the following two centuries."(1)

Since this translation was completed in pre-Christian Alexandria more than 100 years before Jesus was even born, the position that Christian scholars have intentionally misinterpreted this word holds no merit. The Septuagint was not attempting to support a "Christian" interpretation of Isaiah 7:14 or any other verse.

Bs'd

You put too much importance on the LXX. The LXX has been corrupted through the ages, a fact which is readlly admitted by the Christians:

Here are a few excerpts from the online Catholic Encyclopedia, here to be found:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/ from the entry "Septuagint" which show the reliability of the LXX:

The Christians had recourse to it constantly in their controversies with the Jews, who soon recognized its imperfections, and finally rejected it in favour of the Hebrew text or of more literal translations (Aquila, Theodotion).

On account of its diffusion alone the hellenizing Jews and early Christians, copies of the Septuagint were multiplied; and as might be expected, many changes, deliberate as well as involuntary, crept in.

The Septuagint Version, while giving exactly as to the form and substance the true sense of the Sacred Books, differs nevertheless considerably from our present Hebrew text.

Again, we must not think that we have at present the Greek text exactly as it was written by the translators; the frequent transcriptions during the early centuries, as well as the corrections and editions of Origen, Lucian, and Hesychius impaired the purity of the text: voluntarily or involuntarily the copyists allowed many textual corruptions, transpositions, additions, and omissions to creep into the primitive text of the Septuagint.

So the Catholics openly admit they corrupted the LXX. Therefore you cannot draw any conclusions from what is now written in the LXX.

Apart from that, of the seven times that the word "almah" appears in the Tanach, the LXX translates is four times as "young woman", one time as "youth", and only two times as "virgin", one of those two times being Isaiah 7:14.

So the translators of the LXX knew very well what "almah" means; "young woman". So why does it state in Isaiah 7:14 "virgin"? Most likely Christian editing.
#38
Eliyahu,
Even so the 72 elders of Israel (six from each tribe) the writers specifically chose the Greek word "parthenos," for virgin.
The New Testament say's the angel Gabriel was sent from God and speaks of the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ.
Then we have testimony from God the Father for those whom He speaks too.
So the problem is yours and not for the multitudes of believing Jews and Gentiles.
#39
(01-19-2014, 11:19 AM)Eliyahu Wrote: "Almah" signifies "young women", and nothing more. It says nothing about her character, it says nothing about her virginity, nothing about her reputation, (she can very well be a promiscuous woman or an adulteres), it just says she is a young woman.

Here in Isaiah, the young woman was most likely married, because she was pregnant and in the process of giving birth. So she was definitely not a virgin.

[Then you can show me undoubtedly a dictionary that has "virgin" in the entry "almah".

Show me please.
Surely ;How about the dictionary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah
#40
(01-20-2014, 07:13 AM)Azriel Wrote:
(01-19-2014, 11:19 AM)Eliyahu Wrote: "Almah" signifies "young women", and nothing more. It says nothing about her character, it says nothing about her virginity, nothing about her reputation, (she can very well be a promiscuous woman or an adulteres), it just says she is a young woman.

Here in Isaiah, the young woman was most likely married, because she was pregnant and in the process of giving birth. So she was definitely not a virgin.

[Then you can show me undoubtedly a dictionary that has "virgin" in the entry "almah".

Show me please.
Surely ;How about the dictionary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah

Bs'd

What about it? It doesn't say that "almah" means "virgin". It correctly says: "Almah (עלמה, plural: alamot עלמות) is a Hebrew word meaning a young woman of childbearing age who has not yet had a child, and who may be an unmarried virgin or a married young woman."

So they admit an almah can be a married woman.

So translating a woman who can be married as "virgin" is of course a BIG mistake.


Any other dictionaries?


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)