Bible Options Bible Study Software
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Jesus
#1
Is baby Jesus and the resurrected Jesus one and the same?
#2
(09-17-2013, 07:16 PM)moverandshaker Wrote: Is baby Jesus and the resurrected Jesus one and the same?

Yes and No.

The Lamb of God was slaughtered before the beginning of the World (If ever that was Jesus). Eternity is so much bigger than our understanding.
At the other hand, it is people who want to think in chronological ways of development.
#3
(09-19-2013, 01:44 PM)Yetzirah Wrote:
(09-17-2013, 07:16 PM)moverandshaker Wrote: Is baby Jesus and the resurrected Jesus one and the same?

Yes and No.

The Lamb of God was slaughtered before the beginning of the World (If ever that was Jesus). Eternity is so much bigger than our understanding.
At the other hand, it is people who want to think in chronological ways of development.

Interesting. How was the Lamb of God slaughtered before Creation?
#4
(09-20-2013, 10:19 AM)moverandshaker Wrote:
(09-19-2013, 01:44 PM)Yetzirah Wrote:
(09-17-2013, 07:16 PM)moverandshaker Wrote: Is baby Jesus and the resurrected Jesus one and the same?

Yes and No.

The Lamb of God was slaughtered before the beginning of the World (If ever that was Jesus). Eternity is so much bigger than our understanding.
At the other hand, it is people who want to think in chronological ways of development.

Interesting. How was the Lamb of God slaughtered before Creation?

The reference may be to Revelation 13:8 -- "All who dwell on the earth will worship him [Satan], whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world."

Here is the way I see it:

The concept of "before the foundation of the world" is found several times in the New Testament, indicating (to me) God's eternal power, wisdom and plan to love and care for His creation, especially Man. However, we have tried to interfere with His plan by using our free will to sin against Him in thought, word and deed.

Jesus, as both God and the Son of God, has always loved humanity; and even before the world was created, He was planning to be the blood atonement for the sins of future sinners who would put their faith (obedient trust) in Him. He has always been the Lamb, and always will be.

Another way to look at this: God is outside of creation, not inside it, and so is not bound by time and space. That may mean that all is present, not past or future, where He is -- and so Jesus is eternally the Lamb who was slain, even though His crucifixion was on a specific day in what to us seems to be the distant past.

Additional examples of "before the foundation of the world" are found in Ephesians 1:4; Hebrews 4:3, 9:26; I Peter 1:20; Matt. 13:35, 25:34; Luke 11:50; and John 17:24.

Malachi 3:6 -- "For I am the Lord, I do not change..."

Hebrews 13:8 -- "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."
#5
(09-20-2013, 12:53 PM)MAlan Wrote:
(09-20-2013, 10:19 AM)moverandshaker Wrote:
(09-19-2013, 01:44 PM)Yetzirah Wrote:
(09-17-2013, 07:16 PM)moverandshaker Wrote: Is baby Jesus and the resurrected Jesus one and the same?

Yes and No.

The Lamb of God was slaughtered before the beginning of the World (If ever that was Jesus). Eternity is so much bigger than our understanding.
At the other hand, it is people who want to think in chronological ways of development.

Interesting. How was the Lamb of God slaughtered before Creation?

The reference may be to Revelation 13:8 -- "All who dwell on the earth will worship him [Satan], whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world."

Here is the way I see it:

The concept of "before the foundation of the world" is found several times in the New Testament, indicating (to me) God's eternal power, wisdom and plan to love and care for His creation, especially Man. However, we have tried to interfere with His plan by using our free will to sin against Him in thought, word and deed.

Jesus, as both God and the Son of God, has always loved humanity; and even before the world was created, He was planning to be the blood atonement for the sins of future sinners who would put their faith (obedient trust) in Him. He has always been the Lamb, and always will be.

Another way to look at this: God is outside of creation, not inside it, and so is not bound by time and space. That may mean that all is present, not past or future, where He is -- and so Jesus is eternally the Lamb who was slain, even though His crucifixion was on a specific day in what to us seems to be the distant past.

Additional examples of "before the foundation of the world" are found in Ephesians 1:4; Hebrews 4:3, 9:26; I Peter 1:20; Matt. 13:35, 25:34; Luke 11:50; and John 17:24.

Malachi 3:6 -- "For I am the Lord, I do not change..."

Hebrews 13:8 -- "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

But...I just don't know. I have a problem with understanding the trinity. I feel it is simply theosophy. I know that Jesus did not believe God to be divisible. What do you think?
#6
Quote: Interesting. How was the Lamb of God slaughtered before Creation?
I liked what MAlan wrote, it gives a good idea.
We Jews might say that because God is eternal, and he created everything, for example even ''time''. He is much more and above everything.
So for him it would not be that important that a baby is different from a resurected one.
Judaism does not have it that a baby is sinfull for example. After the story of Noah, it's written that God ''found out'' (of course he knew) that children are sinfull from childhood on. Baby's when they grow up learn how to be sinful when they start to claim to much for themselves, learn how to cheat etc.
Everybody who returns to Gods eternity resurrects himself, It is all about His Kingdom, what includes some Angels, Messiahs and people that might show us the way. But it's about HIM, not about a function of an angel, us or a Messiah.
#7
(09-20-2013, 12:53 PM)MAlan Wrote: Jesus, as both God and the Son of God,

How can Christ say he ascends to His God yet be as both God and his Son?

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If Jesus were both God and the Son of God Jesus would have said so. He never did. It can't get anymore plain then Christ himself say he is ascending to 'my God.'

Why would God say he has a God to ascend to if he is God?

Not only that, but you believe God is after the order of man? Because Melchzidek is a man, and Christ is after this order of another Priesthood. But God is not after the order of any Priest. He is above all.

(09-20-2013, 01:10 PM)moverandshaker Wrote: But...I just don't know. I have a problem with understanding the trinity. I feel it is simply theosophy. I know that Jesus did not believe God to be divisible. What do you think?

If you read scripture plain: John 20:17. Christ doesn't say God is divisible or not divisible what Christ said is that he has a God to ascend to. How people believe Christ is both God and the Son of God outside of his own words is one huge contradiction for Christianity. For they always preach Christ right up until they want to claim he is God too then you notice they never point to Jesus' own words?
#8
'Baby's are sinful from childhood on'-- IF the child lies , Who sinned, the child because of the lie or the one that put the fear in the child that made the child lie?

Does Christianity follow Jesus' theology or Pauline Theology? If it followed Jesus' theology I would think then that it would have to follow Judaism. Jesus never believed in Polytheism. The Apostles would never have accepted the Trinity either. Do you think that the New Testament's interpolations over the past 2000 years has transformed Christianity from a Jewish Order into a newly developed Gnostic religion?

Now, my point on my initial question. Is Jesus the baby the same as the resurrected Jesus?
Luke 2:11 tells of an angel speaking to the shepherds about a "Lord" born in the town of David. Lord means you have authority over the Heaven and the Earth. So the baby was born with this authority then. In John 28:18 Jesus tells the Apostles, after his resurrection, that all "authority" has been given to him. So then baby Jesus and the resurrected Jesus cannot be one and the same. This are interpolations plugged into the New Testament by early Christian writers. It is difficult to believe that they would have done these things but they did. People are People. Remember that these early Christian writers/developers were in battle with the Gnostics. They had to 'create' a religion that was defensible from the Gnostic point of view.

What do you think?
#9
(09-22-2013, 05:05 AM)moverandshaker Wrote: 'Baby's are sinful from childhood on'-- IF the child lies , Who sinned, the child because of the lie or the one that put the fear in the child that made the child lie?

Does a child always lie out of fear? And if one puts fear into a child is the intent to make them lie?

(09-22-2013, 05:05 AM)moverandshaker Wrote: Does Christianity follow Jesus' theology or Pauline Theology?

When reading scripture I can't really tell a difference. Jesus spoke about how to behave, and Paul seemed to answer from his own understanding being an Apostle about how to behave. I don't believe the two are that separate to be called Pauline Theology.

(09-22-2013, 05:05 AM)moverandshaker Wrote: Do you think that the New Testament's interpolations over the past 2000 years has transformed Christianity from a Jewish Order into a newly developed Gnostic religion?

I think some groups of people who believe in certain denominations that consider themselves Christian are indeed guilty of this. Mainly Mormons, Jehovahs witness, I agree with them up to a point and then they insert stuff that isn't there. Or they don't follow the rule about how to discern a true Prophet etc.

(09-22-2013, 05:05 AM)moverandshaker Wrote: Now, my point on my initial question. Is Jesus the baby the same as the resurrected Jesus?

Yes.

(09-22-2013, 05:05 AM)moverandshaker Wrote: Luke 2:11 tells of an angel speaking to the shepherds about a "Lord" born in the town of David. Lord means you have authority over the Heaven and the Earth. So the baby was born with this authority then. In John 28:18 Jesus tells the Apostles, after his resurrection, that all "authority" has been given to him. So then baby Jesus and the resurrected Jesus cannot be one and the same.

Would you say that King Solomon isn't the same as baby Solomon because when baby Solomon was born in the line for the throne he didn't take authority then but when he was a man? He is referred to as being the one to take the throne in I Kings 30 before Solomon was a man.

(09-22-2013, 05:05 AM)moverandshaker Wrote: This are interpolations plugged into the New Testament by early Christian writers. It is difficult to believe that they would have done these things but they did. People are People. Remember that these early Christian writers/developers were in battle with the Gnostics. They had to 'create' a religion that was defensible from the Gnostic point of view.

What do you think?

I think your thought process on that whole issue doesn't line up because when you apply the same process to people with King authority as babies in the Old Testament it doesn't make much sense. Kings are born into the throne but they're still the same person.
#10
Hi Moverandshaker,
I put the 2 replies together:
Quote:'Baby's are sinful from childhood on'-- IF the child lies , Who sinned, the child because of the lie or the one that put the fear in the child that made the child lie?
Quote:Does a child always lie out of fear? And if one puts fear into a child is the intent to make them lie?

First of all I quoted our bible. Is says ''Children'' not ''Baby's''. The dogma that Babies are born IN Sin is not a Jewish one. Yes we all have to deal with our collective sin, but you can't hold a baby responsible for ''not being saved yet.'' The Almighty did not say that baby's are sinful, so it's about children who had already a certain worldview, intention etc.
IF a Child lies, it is all about his knowledge and intention... But The Almighty does not give an exact answer during the Noah story. And if the person who did put the fear in the child in order to make him lie, he is also sinning and responsible. A child from above 12 years old should have learned to defend himself, stand up against manipulation.
But still it is like with the story with Cain and Abel... The learned ''though shall not kill''... Then o.k. Cain was hitting Abel with a stick, how did Cain know that Abel could die from it? Cain never saw somebody being killed before. So maybe The Almighty gave him because of that a less harsch punishment. A kid who didn't learn exactly the results of his actions can be punished less, maybe can't go free in all kind of cases either.

Ineed the intent is realy important. To put fear in somebody else is already a slippery slope to, you have to think hard why you put fear into somebody (unnecessarily or not)


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)