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Messianic Verses
#11
Mitch, what are you trying to say? If your master advocated following the rabbis in Mt 23 ("The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do"), is he then contradicting himself in Mt 15?

Or, perhaps there is a different answer we can give. G-D repeatedly calls Israel His servant (Isaiah 41:8-9, 43:10, 44:1-2, etc.), and then says "Who is blind but My servant?" (42:19). Perhaps the Nazarene is saying that the rabbis ("the blind leaders") are the leaders of Israel ("the blind"), who collectively are G-D's servant (Isaiah 43:10) who, in the End of Days, will be exalted (Isaiah 52:13).

It seems Jesus knew the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 was Israel all along. That was a very good catch, Mitch. I just wish you had said it a little clearer.
#12
(10-14-2013, 12:31 AM)A. Bird Wrote: Thank you for the answer. I agree with you.

I don't need more chapters than those, I need ALL the chapters about Messiah.
I just wanted to give some time for those who still and really expect the Messiah's arrival to provide me with the Biblical reasons for their expectation.
(I understand that traditional reasons do also play a part in many's unfulfilled expectation)

I will add the chapters you've mentioned (40 - 48 of Ezekiel) to the list above.
It is already a lot to understand, nonetheless still only 15 Chapters out of a possible 1189 from only four books.
This seems to be very little for an expectation that used to be a central part of Judaism.

The belief that there is a Messianic Age during which the Messiah will reign is a central belief to Judaism, but it is not as important to Jews as it is to Christians, and I think I need to explain.

The Christians are obsessed with who they think is the Messiah, and are so enthralled by the Nazarene that anything that looks like a Messianic prophecy or concept in the Jewish Writings is automatically assumed to be one and their leader "fulfilled" it. Thus, every book in the Jewish Writings is said to point clearly and obviously to the Nazarene. You just need the right glasses.

To a Jew, the future Messianic Age is indeed important, as we mention this concept several times a day in our prayers, and Maimonides says it is one of the 13 core Jewish beliefs, but it is not the central Biblical message G-D told His people. I mentioned only a few chapters which talk about the Messianic Age (I tried to bring unique ideas, not many verses which repeat the same basic theme), there are many more chapters which are not prophetic at all, such as the bulk of the Five Books of Moshe, the whole of Esther, Psalms, and Ecclesiastes. Still many dozens of passages speak of historical events, like most of Isaiah 1-39, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings. Why? The whole point of anything is to grow close to G-D and be the best you you can be. As Ecclesiastes 12:13 says, "The sum of the matter, once everything is considered: Fear G-D and keep His commandments, for that is the whole of man."
#13
benyosef Wrote:The belief that there is a Messianic Age during which the Messiah will reign is a central belief to Judaism, but it is not as important to Jews as it is to Christians...

The reason for this is of course because we believe that Messiah's kingdom is not of this world, the LORD reigns, let the earth be glad; let the distant shores rejoice today, yesterday and tomorrow, not only always tomorrow.

benyosef Wrote:The Christians are obsessed with who they think is the Messiah, ..so enthralled by the Nazarene ..anything that looks like a Messianic prophecy ..in the Jewish Writings is automatically assumed to be one and their leader "fulfilled" it ..every book in the Jewish Writings is said to point clearly and obviously to the Naz. You just need the right glasses.

I cannot agree more! Smile It's just a little bit more difficult than putting on glasses, let me tell you this; unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

benyosef Wrote:To a Jew, the future Messianic Age is indeed important... and Maimonides says it is one of the 13 core Jewish beliefs, but it is not the central Biblical message G-D told His people.

Well Maimonides last three core beliefs was:
11.G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
12.The Messiah will come
13.The dead will be resurrected

It will always be "will" it will always be future. So we're back at Leibowitz. Or if these futuristic beliefs are core to Judaism it means that Judaism's core or Judaism itself will fall away as soon as Messiah comes. Or will a core belief of Judaism, during the Messianic age still be: "The Messiah will come"?
No of course it can't and shouldn't because it denies Messiah's arrival, it will be anti-messiah. This is the case today.

benyosef Wrote:I mentioned only a few chapters which talk about the Messianic Age (I tried to bring unique ideas, not many verses which repeat the same basic theme), there are many more chapters which are not prophetic at all, such as the bulk of the Five Books of Moshe, the whole of Esther, Psalms, and Ecclesiastes. Still many dozens of passages speak of historical events, like most of Isaiah 1-39... Why?

Sorry, just for clarification: Do you mean, by saying that many books and chapters are not prophetic at all; that they do not speak of Messiah?
You mention also that most of Isaiah 1 - 39 speak of historical events yet you've included Isaiah 2 & Isaiah 11 in the list of Messianic verses, what is your criteria for determining Messianic verses?

benyosef Wrote:The whole point of anything is to grow close to G-D and be the best you you can be. As Ecclesiastes 12:13 says, "The sum of the matter, once everything is considered: Fear G-D and keep His commandments, for that is the whole of man."

Yes, this is the Christian stance.
#14
Okey, so it might be that some people are on holiday, away from their computers, nonetheless, I'll try and carry on.
It must be said that 11 chapters from the Bible is a shocking turnout.
Is that what is left of messianic expectancy today? It seems there is really very little messiah outside of Christianity, outside of Y'shua.

Alleged Messianic Verses:

Isaiah 2, 11, 66
Jeremiah 31
Ezekiel 37, 40 - 48
Micah 4

Let's try and talk about each of these Chapters.
Seeing that I believe in the fulfillment of all prophecy in our Lord and Saviour Y'shua the one we preach as being Messiah, I'll have to speculate on how these Chapters might be fulfilled in the future.
Of course those who do not believe in Y'shua or those who look for future fulfillment can help me understand. Please do try.
I'll start another Thread for each given chapter, starting with Isaiah 2.
#15
A. Bird Wrote:...we believe that Messiah's kingdom is not of this world...

Don’t think it’s not important to Jews: it’s simply not the main focus of the Torah. We Jews believe that the Scriptural promises of tangible, verifiable improvements in the world will be in effect with the Messiah’s reign. We are not told of a “spiritual” reign which must be accepted on mere faith. When the graves open up, then you’ll know.

A. Bird Wrote:It will always be "will" it will always be future...if these futuristic beliefs are core to Judaism it means that Judaism's core or Judaism itself will fall away as soon as Messiah comes...

What’s wrong with “will be,” especially since he speaks of events which have clearly not yet happened? Remember the context in which his list written: before the advent of the Messiah. It’s important to keep no. 12 in mind, but there are 11 beliefs more important to day-to-day living.

A. Bird Wrote:Do you mean, by saying that many books and chapters are not prophetic at all; that they do not speak of Messiah?

Yes. Exactly that. They are prophetic in the sense that they were written with Divine assistance, but take I Samuel 17 for example: all "storyline," and so prophecy whatsoever.

A. Bird Wrote:You mention also that most of Isaiah 1 - 39 speak of historical events yet you've included Isaiah 2 & Isaiah 11 in the list of Messianic verses, what is your criteria for determining Messianic verses?

By saying “most” of Isaiah 1-39 speaks of historical events, I left room for the few chapters which contain prophecy relevant to future generations.

The criteria for determining which verses are Messianic is to see if it speaks of verses yet to occur. A common phrase would be “In those days,” “In the End of Days,” “Days are coming,” etc. When examining them, we see common themes being painted that corroborate very smoothly with one another, a picture of peace, worship of G-D, keeping the Torah, etc. Occasionally G-D will tell us of a single person, the Messiah, and we thus have an idea of what he will be like, but he is not as important as what the world will look like when he reigns.

A. Bird Wrote:Yes, this is the Christian stance.

Christians keep commandments?
#16
the graves already opened up read Matthew 27:52
#17
(11-13-2013, 10:45 PM)benyosef Wrote: We Jews believe that the Scriptural promises of tangible, verifiable improvements in the world will be in effect with the Messiah’s reign. We are not told of a “spiritual” reign which must be accepted on mere faith. When the graves open up, then you’ll know.

- For those who place their trust in Y'shua it is the same; tangible, verifiable imporvement. It is so real for us that we don't need to read of it in the newspaper to believe it. We experience it daily.
- You ARE told of a spiritual reign which you need to accept. I've told you many times allready.

(11-13-2013, 10:45 PM)benyosef Wrote:
A. Bird Wrote:It will always be "will" it will always be future...if these futuristic beliefs are core to Judaism it means that Judaism's core or Judaism itself will fall away as soon as Messiah comes...

What’s wrong with “will be,” especially since he speaks of events which have clearly not yet happened? Remember the context in which his list written: before the advent of the Messiah. It’s important to keep no. 12 in mind, but there are 11 beliefs more important to day-to-day living.

When Messiah has come, there will be a lot wrong with "will be".
That's the case at this very moment.

(11-13-2013, 10:45 PM)benyosef Wrote: Yes. Exactly that. They are prophetic in the sense that they were written with Divine assistance, but take I Samuel 17 for example: all "storyline," and so prophecy whatsoever.

By saying “most” of Isaiah 1-39 speaks of historical events, I left room for the few chapters which contain prophecy relevant to future generations.

The criteria for determining which verses are Messianic is to see if it speaks of verses yet to occur. A common phrase would be “In those days,” “In the End of Days,” “Days are coming,” etc. When examining them, we see common themes being painted that corroborate very smoothly with one another, a picture of peace, worship of G-D, keeping the Torah, etc. Occasionally G-D will tell us of a single person, the Messiah, and we thus have an idea of what he will be like, but he is not as important as what the world will look like when he reigns.

I'm still very much surprised about the small amount of verses given. You were the only one who had something to add, I really think the rest doesn't really expect a messiah still.
Nonetheless I'd like to hear the interpretation of the given verses.

(11-13-2013, 10:45 PM)benyosef Wrote: Christians keep commandments?

Yes of course, they are just much closer to us.
#18
benyosef wrote:
Don’t think it’s not important to Jews: it’s simply not the main focus of the Torah.


You mean unbelieving Jew's. It is very important to believing Jews.
Colossians speaks of the Messiah
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
#19
(11-14-2013, 10:30 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: the graves already opened up read Matthew 27:52

I meant verifiable grave-openings, as in Ezekiel 37:12-14:
"Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus says the L-RD G-D; Behold, O My people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the L-RD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up out of your graves, and shall put My spirit in you, and you shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall you know that I the L-RD have spoken it, and performed it, says the L-RD."
#20
A. Bird Wrote:For those who place their trust in Y'shua it is the same; tangible, verifiable imporvement. It is so real for us that we don't need to read of it in the newspaper to believe it. We experience it daily.

I, too, experience peace in my worship of G-D, but G-D promised a cessation of weapons and nations no longer fighting. Where is the fulfillment of this promise?

A. Bird Wrote:You ARE told of a spiritual reign which you need to accept. I've told you many times allready.

Sorry, where?

A. Bird Wrote:
benyosef Wrote:What’s wrong with “will be,” especially since he speaks of events which have clearly not yet happened? Remember the context in which his list written: before the advent of the Messiah. It’s important to keep no. 12 in mind, but there are 11 beliefs more important to day-to-day living.

When Messiah has come, there will be a lot wrong with "will be". That's the case at this very moment.

When the Messiah comes his list will have to be whittled down by at least two, for numbers 12 and 13 will no longer be necessary.

A. Bird Wrote:I'm still very much surprised about the small amount of verses given. You were the only one who had something to add, I really think the rest doesn't really expect a messiah still.
Nonetheless I'd like to hear the interpretation of the given verses.

For brevity, I tried to bring one or two examples of each Messianic element and description, although these same ideas are repeated a number of times in the Jewish Scriptures.

Instead of asking for an interpretation of the passages I already cited, why not read them and see what they clearly say? Then you can come back with questions and we can discuss the matter further.

A. Bird Wrote:
benyosef Wrote:Christians keep commandments?
Yes of course…
Like what?


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