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Messianic Verses
#21
(11-17-2013, 12:34 AM)benyosef Wrote: I, too, experience peace in my worship of G-D, but G-D promised a cessation of weapons and nations no longer fighting. Where is the fulfillment of this promise?

You do? Look closely and you'll see who the warmongers are, you'll find war following them werever they go.
Thank God there's peace in Europe now. Is there war in Chicago?

(11-17-2013, 12:34 AM)benyosef Wrote:
A. Bird Wrote:You ARE told of a spiritual reign which you need to accept. I've told you many times allready.
Sorry, where?

I'll tell you again: God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.
This is what you need if you want to worship God, if you want to worship your pocket and your traditions you don't have to care about this.

benyosef Wrote:
A. Bird Wrote:When Messiah has come, there will be a lot wrong with "will be". That's the case at this very moment.

When the Messiah comes his list will have to be whittled down by at least two, for numbers 12 and 13 will no longer be necessary.

You are right. We have, however, learned that his (Maimonides) followers, will refuse to whittle down the list. Their religion is exactly that, anti-Messiah.

benyosef Wrote:
A. Bird Wrote:I'm still very much surprised about the small amount of verses given. You were the only one who had something to add, I really think the rest doesn't really expect a messiah still.
Nonetheless I'd like to hear the interpretation of the given verses.

Instead of asking for an interpretation of the passages I already cited, why not read them and see what they clearly say? Then you can come back with questions and we can discuss the matter further.

Relax, take it easy... That was exactly the point of this thread.
I've started with Isaiah 2 already, thanks for providing it. Go check it out, you can come and explain to me how happy those verses make you about the coming of your messiah.

benyosef Wrote:Christians keep commandments?
A. Bird Wrote:Yes of course…
benyosef Wrote:Like what?

We keep all of God's commandments.
Some, sometimes, sin, this is terrible but we are sure of this; that He who began a good work in us will bring it to completion at the day of our Lord and Saviour Y'shua.
#22
A. Bird Wrote:Look closely and you'll see who the warmongers are, you'll find war following them werever they go. Thank God there's peace in Europe now. Is there war in Chicago?

I’m not sure of your point here. There may be pockets of peace here and there, but G-D says nation will not lift sword against nation, no one will learn war, and implements of war will be converted into implements of agriculture. If Iran and North Korea have nukes, these are two loud proofs that peace does not reign in our time yet. If you see a “Palestinian” with a rifle or even a Molotov Cocktail, this the Messiah clearly has not arrived. Even gun-toting policemen are testimony to this. Unless you’re trying to convince me that this clear messianic promise has been fulfilled, I’m not sure what your point is, and if that is what you are doing, well, it’s not very effective.

A. Bird Wrote:I'll tell you again: God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.
This is what you need if you want to worship God, if you want to worship your pocket and your traditions you don't have to care about this.

Ah, so there’s no Biblical verse which says this, but rather your own belief? I will tell you that you are certainly free to believe what you want, and I don’t really have any issue with non-Jews believing in Jesus or Reverend Moon or whoever they want. Just don’t tell Jews that your belief in Biblical, because it simply isn’t.

A. Bird Wrote:You are right. We have, however, learned that his (Maimonides) followers, will refuse to whittle down the list. Their religion is exactly that, anti-Messiah.

I’m afraid you are again confusing the terms “anti-Messiah” and “anti-false-Messiah.”

A. Bird Wrote:We keep all of God's commandments.

I’ve never seen a non-Jew careful to keep the commandments clearly listed in the Books of Moshe. This isn’t surprising as G-D’s 613 commandments were only given to the Jews, it’ just unusual when non-Jews tell me they keep “all of G-D’s commandments,” especially because they say that they are no longer valid or essential, or were even impossible to keep in the first place. Many Christians like to play both sides of the aisle.

I would really like to see your new thread, I simply don't have that kind of time right now.
#23
(11-19-2013, 10:44 PM)benyosef Wrote:
A. Bird Wrote:Look closely and you'll see who the warmongers are, you'll find war following them werever they go. Thank God there's peace in Europe now. Is there war in Chicago?

I’m not sure of your point here. There may be pockets of peace here and there, but G-D says nation will not lift sword against nation, no one will learn war, and implements of war will be converted into implements of agriculture. If Iran and North Korea have nukes, these are two loud proofs that peace does not reign in our time yet. If you see a “Palestinian” with a rifle or even a Molotov Cocktail, this the Messiah clearly has not arrived. Even gun-toting policemen are testimony to this. Unless you’re trying to convince me that this clear messianic promise has been fulfilled, I’m not sure what your point is, and if that is what you are doing, well, it’s not very effective.

My point is that peace is there where people bow the knee to our Lord and Saviour Y'shua the anointed of God. Nations live in peace with each other where Y'shua's reign is not rebelled against.
People are streaming from Iran, Iraq, Syria, Israel, Afganistan and many other countries to find peace in traditionaly Christian countries. It is all nice and theoretical for you in Chicago but those who live in non-Christian and anit-Christian countries, they know where to find peace.
Please understand me, I'm not here to force peace on you, I respect that for you there is no peace, not even in Chicago.

(11-19-2013, 10:44 PM)benyosef Wrote:
A. Bird Wrote:I'll tell you again: God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.
This is what you need if you want to worship God, if you want to worship your pocket and your traditions you don't have to care about this.

Ah, so there’s no Biblical verse which says this, but rather your own belief? I will tell you that you are certainly free to believe what you want, and I don’t really have any issue with non-Jews believing in Jesus or Reverend Moon or whoever they want. Just don’t tell Jews that your belief in Biblical, because it simply isn’t.

Yes this is Messianic belief. I am preaching to you: You cannot serve the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in any other way than this.
#24
(11-19-2013, 10:44 PM)benyosef Wrote: I’ve never seen a non-Jew careful to keep the commandments clearly listed in the Books of Moshe. This isn’t surprising as G-D’s 613 commandments were only given to the Jews, it’ just unusual when non-Jews tell me they keep “all of G-D’s commandments,” especially because they say that they are no longer valid or essential, or were even impossible to keep in the first place.

Christians, Jew or non-Jew, should not talk of “all of G-D’s commandments,” we have come to know God in His fullness and need not to make Him incomplete in the way unbelieving Jews do. It is also in this way that we keep all God's commandments: knowing and doing His will in obedience rather than creating space in God in order for so-called rabbis to fill in for Him. This is very primitive.
Rather than this we live the promise of God: I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
If you come to your Messiah you will know and understand, you will received the Holy Spirit, and He will live within you, so you won't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit will teach you everything you need to know, and what He teaches is true--it is not a lie. And He will teach you to, remain in fellowship with Messiah.
#25
(11-21-2013, 03:36 AM)A. Bird Wrote:
(11-19-2013, 10:44 PM)benyosef Wrote: I’ve never seen a non-Jew careful to keep the commandments clearly listed in the Books of Moshe. This isn’t surprising as G-D’s 613 commandments were only given to the Jews, it’ just unusual when non-Jews tell me they keep “all of G-D’s commandments,” especially because they say that they are no longer valid or essential, or were even impossible to keep in the first place.

Christians, Jew or non-Jew, should not talk of “all of G-D’s commandments,” we have come to know God in His fullness and need not to make Him incomplete in the way unbelieving Jews do. It is also in this way that we keep all God's commandments: knowing and doing His will in obedience rather than creating space in God in order for so-called rabbis to fill in for Him. This is very primitive.
Rather than this we live the promise of God: I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
If you come to your Messiah you will know and understand, you will received the Holy Spirit, and He will live within you, so you won't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit will teach you everything you need to know, and what He teaches is true--it is not a lie. And He will teach you to, remain in fellowship with Messiah.
The problem is that Christians contradict the spirit they say they have when they deny Ezek 36:26-37.
#26
(11-21-2013, 03:01 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(11-21-2013, 03:36 AM)A. Bird Wrote:
(11-19-2013, 10:44 PM)benyosef Wrote: I’ve never seen a non-Jew careful to keep the commandments clearly listed in the Books of Moshe. This isn’t surprising as G-D’s 613 commandments were only given to the Jews, it’ just unusual when non-Jews tell me they keep “all of G-D’s commandments,” especially because they say that they are no longer valid or essential, or were even impossible to keep in the first place.

Christians, Jew or non-Jew, should not talk of “all of G-D’s commandments,” we have come to know God in His fullness and need not to make Him incomplete in the way unbelieving Jews do. It is also in this way that we keep all God's commandments: knowing and doing His will in obedience rather than creating space in God in order for so-called rabbis to fill in for Him. This is very primitive.
Rather than this we live the promise of God: I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
If you come to your Messiah you will know and understand, you will received the Holy Spirit, and He will live within you, so you won't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit will teach you everything you need to know, and what He teaches is true--it is not a lie. And He will teach you to, remain in fellowship with Messiah.
The problem is that Christians contradict the spirit they say they have when they deny Ezek 36:26-37.

Ezek 36:26-37 refers to Jews in Israel
#27
(11-22-2013, 03:01 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(11-21-2013, 03:01 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(11-21-2013, 03:36 AM)A. Bird Wrote:
(11-19-2013, 10:44 PM)benyosef Wrote: I’ve never seen a non-Jew careful to keep the commandments clearly listed in the Books of Moshe. This isn’t surprising as G-D’s 613 commandments were only given to the Jews, it’ just unusual when non-Jews tell me they keep “all of G-D’s commandments,” especially because they say that they are no longer valid or essential, or were even impossible to keep in the first place.

Christians, Jew or non-Jew, should not talk of “all of G-D’s commandments,” we have come to know God in His fullness and need not to make Him incomplete in the way unbelieving Jews do. It is also in this way that we keep all God's commandments: knowing and doing His will in obedience rather than creating space in God in order for so-called rabbis to fill in for Him. This is very primitive.
Rather than this we live the promise of God: I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
If you come to your Messiah you will know and understand, you will received the Holy Spirit, and He will live within you, so you won't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit will teach you everything you need to know, and what He teaches is true--it is not a lie. And He will teach you to, remain in fellowship with Messiah.
The problem is that Christians contradict the spirit they say they have when they deny Ezek 36:26-37.
Ezek 36:26-37 refers to Jews in Israel
If it refers to Jews, then you're included. By the way, the spirit of Hashem doesn't contradict itself. The spirit is the same for everyone, Isa 56:1-8.
#28
Hello benyosef (Nachshon, and others),

You ask the question in post #2: On what grounds could we say anybody until this point in history was the Messiah in light of what the Torah says about the Messianic Era?

The Messiah is indeed mentioned throughout Old Testament scriptures. The scriptures present the promise plan of God starting as a developing theme in the books of Moses and then giving more and more details as we journey into the texts of scripture. Yeshua literally becomes alive as we read the Law of Moses, the psalms, and the prophets. As our Lord tells us, "They wrote about Me." (Luke 24:44)

Let's explore what the Law of Moses says and how it shows us this 'developing theme'. The "I.D." of our Lord Jesus Christ unfolds before us as we read the pages of scripture.

(Gen. 3:15) And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

^ The Edenic Prediction.

(Gen. 9:25-27) Then he said: "Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants He shall be to his brethren." And he said: "Blessed be the LORD, The God of Shem, And may Canaan be his servant. May God enlarge Japheth, And may he dwell in the tents of Shem; And may Canaan be his servant."

^ The Noahic Prediction.

(Gen. 12:1-3) Now the LORD had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

^ The Abrahamic Prediction (see also verses Gen. 12:7 ; Gen. 13:14-18 ; Gen. 15:4-5 ; Gen. 15:13-18 ; Gen. 17:1-8 ; Gen. 18:17-19 ; Gen. 22:15-18) On two other occasions the same prophetic words were given to Isaac (Gen. 26:4 ; Gen. 26:23-24). And also to Jacob: (Gen. 28:14-15 ; Gen. 35:9-12)

(Gen. 49:8-12) v. 10 > The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.

^ The Judaic Prediction. (see Ezekiel 21:27 which speaks of Shiloh - "Until He comes whose right it is, And I will give it to Him."

(Numbers 24:15-19) v. 17 > I see Him, but not now; I behold Him, but not near; A Star shall come out of Jacob; A Scepter shall rise out of Israel, And batter the brow of Moab, And destroy all the sons of tumult.

^ The Balaamic Prediction.

(Deut. 18:15) "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,
(Deut. 18:18) I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.

^ The Mosaic Prediction.
#29
And to conclude: my last post had too many characters...

Surely, none of the other prophets who followed Moses were like him nor could match him! (see Deut. 34:10-12 and Num. 12:6-8)

- For the Lord spoke to the other prophets in dreams and visions. Not so with Moses! The Lord spoke to him face to face!
#30
OrderMySteps, can you explain exactly what Genesis 3:15 has to do with the Messiah?

Can you explain what Genesis 9:25-27 does for your theology?

The "Abrahamic prediction," and the many times this follows, speaks of the Children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob always being a nation before G-D; what does this specifically have to do with the Messiah?

If Jesus was one spoken of in Genesis 49:10, he has not commanded (or received) the "obedience of (all) the people." Unless you are referring to a subset of "the people," which would then mean this prophecy can apply to many (since many descendants of Judah have had some people's obedience), or to someone yet to arrive (since only Christianity made Jesus their king).

If Bilaam was actually speaking about Jesus, why didn't Jesus batter Moab? We only see him storming the tables of people peacefully purchasing animals for sacrifices in Jn 2, but not "battering" any nations, let alone Moab.

Deuteronomy 18 only tells us G-D will send more prophets who, like Moshe, will successfully convey the word of G-D to the people. This doesn't say anything about the Messiah.

I don't see Jesus in any of these texts. Maybe you can clarify?


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