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Messianic Verses
#31
Walter C. Kaiser, Jr goes over this in his book "The Messiah in the Old Testament." I like his reasoning and would recommended the book (if to read even as just a curiosity, benyosef, as you are not a believer in Y'shua as Messiah).

Link to his website.

^ He is unquestionably a very highly regarded scholar.

Those verses I posted identify the coming Messiah. The Old Testament writings present Him as a developing theme. Subtle at first and growing in more detail as we flip through the pages of the scriptures. He is the Seed of a woman. He is a descendent of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah. He will be like Moses. That is where I stopped. The concept of the Messiah is now firmly established in the books of Moses, albeit in its early stages from whence the 'story' takes on more and more detail from there. (and there are types and illustrations of Him - but that is for another discussion)

Daniel and Isaiah tell us the Messiah shall be killed, but not for Himself. Huh? What can THIS mean? Micah tells us He will be born in Bethlehem and adds another detail for us...His origins are from of old, from eternity past! (now THAT sure is interesting and mysterious! Wait a second! Eternal origins?? Only God can be of.... GASP! He is God???). Zechariah tells us His side will be pierced... and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for a firstborn. The Psalms speak of Messiah throughout. The minor prophets also give us many insights of the mysterious Messiah who WILL COME! That we can be certain!

All the while, we read about the beginnings in the Torah. A Seed. Who will be a Branch (a Root of Jesse as Isaiah describes).

Its a developing theme, benyosef, that grows as we read the scriptures. The Seed is watered and grows to become a Tree (with Branch[es]). We find more and more jewels of information describing Him. Jesus says, "They wrote about Me." From my research, the scriptures most certainly did.
#32
OrderMySteps, I'm sorry, but instead of showing clearly how these verses speak of the Messiah, you merely gave subjective interpretation. When we consider Messianic prophecy, we see themes not only clearly stated, but often repeated. For examples, how do we know the Messiah will be a king? Because he is clearly and repeatedly called a king (Ezekiel 37:24, Hosea 3:5, Jeremiah 23:5, etc.). How do we know Israel/Jews will dwell safely? Because it is clearly and repeatedly mentioned (Isaiah 2:4, Jeremiah 23:6, Ezekiel 37:26, etc.). Worldwide knowledge and worship of G-D? Zechariah 8:23, Isaiah 66:23, Isaiah 11:9. Return of the Jewish exiles to the Land of Israel? Ezekiel 37:25, Isaiah 11:16, Jeremiah 23:7-8.

By contrast, is there a clear mention that the Messiah will die? Not one. You can show one or two verses which could possibly be interpreted as the Messiah dying, but can also be interpreted as someone else dying for our sins, and the context doesn’t lend credence to either claim.

Is there a clear mention that the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem? No. Micah 5 says the origins of the Messiah are in Bethlehem, for Jesse was from there (I Samuel 16:1), not that the Messiah will actually be born there. Does Micah 5 say the Messiah will be an eternal, divine being? Again, no: the phrase “from days of old,” which you translated as “eternity past,” is used to describe things which are clearly not eternal, such as David’s Tabernacle (Amos 9:11), G-D’s oath to our fathers (Micah 7:20), and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem (Malachi 3:4). Thus Micah is saying that the origins of the Messiah are from many years ago, since Micah lived quite some time after Jesse.

I’m sure your author friend is a swell guy, but if all he does is sell his interpretation as the true message of the Scriptures, that’s not a book I really have time to read.
#33
(01-30-2014, 11:27 PM)benyosef Wrote: OrderMySteps, I'm sorry, but instead of showing clearly how these verses speak of the Messiah, you merely gave subjective interpretation. When we consider Messianic prophecy, we see themes not only clearly stated, but often repeated. For examples, how do we know the Messiah will be a king? Because he is clearly and repeatedly called a king (Ezekiel 37:24, Hosea 3:5, Jeremiah 23:5, etc.). How do we know Israel/Jews will dwell safely? Because it is clearly and repeatedly mentioned (Isaiah 2:4, Jeremiah 23:6, Ezekiel 37:26, etc.). Worldwide knowledge and worship of G-D? Zechariah 8:23, Isaiah 66:23, Isaiah 11:9. Return of the Jewish exiles to the Land of Israel? Ezekiel 37:25, Isaiah 11:16, Jeremiah 23:7-8.

By contrast, is there a clear mention that the Messiah will die? Not one. You can show one or two verses which could possibly be interpreted as the Messiah dying, but can also be interpreted as someone else dying for our sins, and the context doesn’t lend credence to either claim.

Is there a clear mention that the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem? No. Micah 5 says the origins of the Messiah are in Bethlehem, for Jesse was from there (I Samuel 16:1), not that the Messiah will actually be born there. Does Micah 5 say the Messiah will be an eternal, divine being? Again, no: the phrase “from days of old,” which you translated as “eternity past,” is used to describe things which are clearly not eternal, such as David’s Tabernacle (Amos 9:11), G-D’s oath to our fathers (Micah 7:20), and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem (Malachi 3:4). Thus Micah is saying that the origins of the Messiah are from many years ago, since Micah lived quite some time after Jesse.

I’m sure your author friend is a swell guy, but if all he does is sell his interpretation as the true message of the Scriptures, that’s not a book I really have time to read.
That is what you false teachers and rabinical rabbi's made up to remove Yeshua.
Most people including Jewish know that Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem.
Herod believed it, the Magi traveled many miles to see the Messiah
Than we have
"And you Bethlehem-Ephrathah who are too little to be counted among the thousands of the house of Judah, from you in My name shall come forth the Messiah who is to be ruler in Israel and whose name has been called from eternity, from the days of old."
- Targum Jonathan on Mikah 5:2 in the Tanakh

"The King Messiah... from where does he come forth? From the royal city of Bethlehem in Judah."
- Jerusalem Talmud, Berakoth 5a

You people are really isolated.
#34
(02-02-2014, 06:08 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-30-2014, 11:27 PM)benyosef Wrote: OrderMySteps, I'm sorry, but instead of showing clearly how these verses speak of the Messiah, you merely gave subjective interpretation. When we consider Messianic prophecy, we see themes not only clearly stated, but often repeated. For examples, how do we know the Messiah will be a king? Because he is clearly and repeatedly called a king (Ezekiel 37:24, Hosea 3:5, Jeremiah 23:5, etc.). How do we know Israel/Jews will dwell safely? Because it is clearly and repeatedly mentioned (Isaiah 2:4, Jeremiah 23:6, Ezekiel 37:26, etc.). Worldwide knowledge and worship of G-D? Zechariah 8:23, Isaiah 66:23, Isaiah 11:9. Return of the Jewish exiles to the Land of Israel? Ezekiel 37:25, Isaiah 11:16, Jeremiah 23:7-8.

By contrast, is there a clear mention that the Messiah will die? Not one. You can show one or two verses which could possibly be interpreted as the Messiah dying, but can also be interpreted as someone else dying for our sins, and the context doesn’t lend credence to either claim.

Is there a clear mention that the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem? No. Micah 5 says the origins of the Messiah are in Bethlehem, for Jesse was from there (I Samuel 16:1), not that the Messiah will actually be born there. Does Micah 5 say the Messiah will be an eternal, divine being? Again, no: the phrase “from days of old,” which you translated as “eternity past,” is used to describe things which are clearly not eternal, such as David’s Tabernacle (Amos 9:11), G-D’s oath to our fathers (Micah 7:20), and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem (Malachi 3:4). Thus Micah is saying that the origins of the Messiah are from many years ago, since Micah lived quite some time after Jesse.

I’m sure your author friend is a swell guy, but if all he does is sell his interpretation as the true message of the Scriptures, that’s not a book I really have time to read.
That is what you false teachers and rabinical rabbi's made up to remove Yeshua.
Most people including Jewish know that Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem.
Herod believed it, the Magi traveled many miles to see the Messiah
Than we have
"And you Bethlehem-Ephrathah who are too little to be counted among the thousands of the house of Judah, from you in My name shall come forth the Messiah who is to be ruler in Israel and whose name has been called from eternity, from the days of old."
- Targum Jonathan on Mikah 5:2 in the Tanakh

"The King Messiah... from where does he come forth? From the royal city of Bethlehem in Judah."
- Jerusalem Talmud, Berakoth 5a

You people are really isolated.
We've talked about this before. Jesse and David are from Bethlehem, so in this sense messiah's origins are from there. Kings were promised to Abraham, Gen 17:6, and Jacob, Gen 35:11. From their loins, not from a virgin.
#35
Tanachreader, if you can tell me honestly that you read these sources and translated them correctly, I will be impressed; Targum Yonatan and the Jerusalem Talmud are very difficult forms of Aramaic. If you didn't actually see them, then how do you know they say what you think they say?

Now, I will concede that there are Jewish commentators who view Micah 5 as being Messianic, but do they all say the Messiah will actually be born in Bethlehem? No. They are all showing that the origins of the Messiah (his "going-forth," i.e. from whence his family hails) is Bethlehem, but the Messiah himself may or may not actually be birthed there.

But let's say that indeed the Messiah had to be born in Bethlehem: what does it accomplish to tell us this? I don't know about you, but I have been told before that it's impressive that the Bible even predicted the very city where the Messiah would be born, but is this a good way to identify the Messiah? If the Bible really wanted us to be able to recognize him, would it tell where he'd be born? Who can truly verify that? Even more, how many thousands of other people fulfilled this "prophecy," before and after Jesus, that this would clearly point to Jesus? And when we consider others whom many Jews thought to be the Messiah (like Bar Kochba and Shabbetai Tzvi), were they born in Bethlehem that we should have considered them eligible in the first place?


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