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Messianic Verses
#1
Does anti-Christ judaism really still expect a Messiah?
Or, is their expectancy merely theoretic and rhetoric?

We know that Leibowitz's expectancy was merely theoretic and rhetoric, for him the coming of Messiah was very important as long as Messiah did not and does not come.
Rephrased one could say it was an anti-expectancy.

This has an interesting influence on Bible reading. Any Torah or Tanakh passage that hints at the fact that the coming of Messiah (i.e. Y'shua of Nazareth) has taken place, has to be bend either to a futuristic expectancy or has to be bend to mean something else comepletely, the latter seems to be the prefered "bending". This is done despite the fact that those same passages were given Messianic meaning by BC teachers.

So I have two questions:
1. Is your Messianic expectancy real or is it like Leibowitz's?
2. Please list all Messianic passages from the Torah or Tanakh.
#2
One difference between Jews and Christians is that Christians tend to find "clues" and "hints" by taking Jesus' life and then looking into Tanach to see what looks like it matches his life. By contrast, Jews read Tanach and see clear criteria for the Messiah and clear descriptions of the Messianic Age, and then look out the window and see that he has not yet arrived. It's not a bias against the Nazarene per se, but the current state of the world is a stark refutation against any Messianic claimant until this point.

Most of the Messianic picture is summed up in Ezekiel 37, particularly after the Valley of Dry Bones. Pretty much anything you want to know of the End of Days is found there. There are many passages outside of Ezekiel 37 which speak of the End of Days, such as Isaiah 2, 11, 66, Micah 4, Jeremiah 31, and a detailed account of the final Temple in Jerusalem in the last nine chapters of Ezekiel, and scattered among some of these are a little bit about this End of Days king (who is never called "Messiah" in the text).

Among all these descriptions there is not a clear reference to any of the outstanding claims made about the Nazarene. No clear verse that the Messiah will die, resurrect, be a sin-bearer, be a divine being, be born supernaturally, etc. But we have verses which say clearly that he will be a righteous judge (Isaiah 11:3-5) the same time the whole world knows G-D (11:9), that he will descend from David and during his reign the Jews will keep the Torah (Ezekiel 37:24).

On what grounds could we say anybody until this point in history was the Messiah in light of what the Torah says about the Messianic Era?
#3
(10-07-2013, 12:37 AM)A. Bird Wrote: So I have two questions:
1. Is your Messianic expectancy real or is it like Leibowitz's?
2. Please list all Messianic passages from the Torah or Tanakh.
1. Can you give the full name of the person you mention, Leibowitz, and what you are qouting from him (book, pages, etc.)?
2. I can't list all Messianic passages right now without researching them, and I probably won't in the interest of time, but why do you say that Judaism has an Anti-Christ understanding of Messiah? One of my favorite verses is Daniel 7:25 -

[KJV] And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

I think all Christians agree that this verse speaks of the anti-Christ or anti-messiah. It is evident that the Anti-Christ changes the religion, i.e., laws, Torah, times (holidays). Who do you think has done this and has worn down the saints?
#4
I mean this Leibowitz. Good thing you asked, we don't want misunderstandings. You can get his idea also in Gespräche über Gott und die Welt.

So what do we have up till now:
Messianic Verses from benyosef:

Isaiah 2, 11, 66
Jeremiah 31
Ezekiel 37, 40 - 48
Micah 4


Antichrist verses from Nachson:

Daniel 7:25

No answer to "Is your Messianic expectancy real or is it like Leibowitz's?" yet.
#5
(10-08-2013, 12:54 PM)A. Bird Wrote: No answer to "Is your Messianic expectancy real or is it like Leibowitz's?" yet.
Can you explain what you believe Leibowitz's messianic expectancy is? I don't have the book and am not planning to buy it either.
#6
(10-09-2013, 06:42 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(10-08-2013, 12:54 PM)A. Bird Wrote: No answer to "Is your Messianic expectancy real or is it like Leibowitz's?" yet.
Can you explain what you believe Leibowitz's messianic expectancy is? I don't have the book and am not planning to buy it either.

I wouldn't spend money on it either.
Leibowitz said:
Any messiah who comes is false: The essence of the Messiah is that he will always be coming.
We don't have to make it about Leibowitz, let us just look at this above quote then. It seems to want to make of messiah merely a rhetoric game.
Do you agree with it or will your messiah arrive sometime?

Nachshon, can you add something to benyosef's Messianic Chapters?
#7
(10-11-2013, 01:21 AM)A. Bird Wrote:
(10-09-2013, 06:42 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(10-08-2013, 12:54 PM)A. Bird Wrote: No answer to "Is your Messianic expectancy real or is it like Leibowitz's?" yet.
Can you explain what you believe Leibowitz's messianic expectancy is? I don't have the book and am not planning to buy it either.

I wouldn't spend money on it either.
Leibowitz said:
Any messiah who comes is false: The essence of the Messiah is that he will always be coming.
We don't have to make it about Leibowitz, let us just look at this above quote then. It seems to want to make of messiah merely a rhetoric game.
Do you agree with it or will your messiah arrive sometime?

Nachshon, can you add something to benyosef's Messianic Chapters?
I don't read German, but if you could state what chapters and pages you got your quote from, I'll verify your claim with someone else.

Other than that, I don't have anything to add for now.
#8
I disagree completely with the notion that the concept of the Messiah is that he will always be coming but never will actually arrive. It seems, if this is indeed what he says and believes, Leibowitz is not knowledgeable about Torah.

A. Bird, why do you need more chapters than those? Pretty much everything about the Messianic Age is summed up in Ezekiel 37, and chapters 40-48 speak of the Temple, how the sacrificial system is returning, and how we will celebrate the holiday of Sukkot. Is there something in particular about the Messiah or the End of Days you wish to see?
#9
Mat 15:11


Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.







Mat 15:12


Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?







Mat 15:13


But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.







Mat 15:14


Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
#10
(10-12-2013, 08:41 PM)benyosef Wrote: I disagree completely with the notion that the concept of the Messiah is that he will always be coming but never will actually arrive. It seems, if this is indeed what he says and believes, Leibowitz is not knowledgeable about Torah.

A. Bird, why do you need more chapters than those? Pretty much everything about the Messianic Age is summed up in Ezekiel 37, and chapters 40-48 speak of the Temple, how the sacrificial system is returning, and how we will celebrate the holiday of Sukkot. Is there something in particular about the Messiah or the End of Days you wish to see?

Thank you for the answer. I agree with you.

I don't need more chapters than those, I need ALL the chapters about Messiah.
I just wanted to give some time for those who still and really expect the Messiah's arrival to provide me with the Biblical reasons for their expectation.
(I understand that traditional reasons do also play a part in many's unfulfilled expectation)

I will add the chapters you've mentioned (40 - 48 of Ezekiel) to the list above.
It is already a lot to understand, nonetheless still only 15 Chapters out of a possible 1189 from only four books.
This seems to be very little for an expectation that used to be a central part of Judaism.


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